Official Luthiers Forum!

Mario buddy my post count is maxed out already so that was the farthest thing from my mind but I am sorry that I irritated your irritable self........

I disagree with you about not inletting the upper transverse brace into the kerfed linings. The upper transverse brace is very important in transmitting some of the rotational forces from the pull of the strings from the top of the guitar to the sides. In my view an inlet UTB helps to transmit these forces to the sides to some degree. Show me a plan commercially available that shows otherwise and I will reconsider my view point here - I certainly could be wrong and often am.

Oh and it was great to see a pic of you in the introductions thread too Mario - you didn't look grumpy to me........

Old habits die hard!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I thought he could use a pair of guitar sunglasses...Oh Billy!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'm not being my miserable self, but rather being realistic; you just did it again, making a thread longer and tougher to read than necessary. We ich and moaned for a year to get an edit button. Use it...

I've built over 2 dozen guitars with NO braces tucked at all, including the transverse, and all back braces. None have had any issues at all. I now tuck everything forward of the soundhole, mostly to aid in locating the plate to the ribs <g>

Really, as long as we have a nice, smooth transition to nothing-ness(feathering), and don't cause a stress riser, we're fine. And he's fine here. Slight risk, but not much of one.

Weren't a lot of the old pre war Gibsons (L-00s, etc...) built without any of the braces being tucked?

(Nice bracing BTW)

Yeah well when I give advice to people it's not acceptable to me to advocate a course of action that includes even a slight risk, if I am aware of it, if the risk is on them and with the guitar that they hope to highly prize.........

I don't want new builders learning from their mistakes - I want them to avoid making any mistakes and be successful enough at this that they fall forever in love with guitar building.

But I hear ya and respect your opinion greatly and it sounds like you have had success not inletting. Nonetheless this does not make what I said incorrect.

True and if you talk to guitar repair folks and consult the new GAL L-OO plan they criticize this practice. Gibson was also known to feather braces to nearly nothing and over lap them over the kerfed linings and just smash them in place when attaching the top or back. I have seen this first hand and studied old Gibsons when ever possible. Gibson went to smashing the mostly feathered braces between the linings and the back and top when the feathered to nothing short of the linings braces came loose.

I feather my lower X-legs to nothing short of the linings and am considering stopping this practice because of Colin's advice.

Just to add a bit of caution and some food for thought. A trianglular cross section brace with the same base width and height as a rectangular brace will only have 1/3 as much stiffness as the rectangular one. To make them equal in stiffness the triangle must be 3 times wider or 1.44 times taller. Using the 1.44 times taller model gives you a stiffness to weight ratio improvement of about 28%. Using the same height for both you get a 66% reduction in stiffness for a 50% weight reduction not a good bargain.
Regarding the tranverse brace issue taking it to the extreme removing the brace completely will likely cause the guitar to fold over on itself. Also, even if it survived for a while much of the energy pumped into the top would be lost through the flexing of top in the tranverse area. IMHO I want the transverse brace to be strong, stiff, inlet, and have a stiff sides to support it. Again IMHO, I would replace the tranverse. The rest looks fine to me.

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Keith MacKenzie
Location: Florida
"To err is human to really screw up you need tools"

If you want a program that can resize your photos real quick (it also does them in a batch), check out Imazer. I use it all the time and it's completely free. ^^

http://www.photo-freeware.net/imazer.php

Okay, what is a pitch pocket and where is it on this top?

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Chuck a pitch pocket is a separation in the grain that is filled with sap or pitch.on this one I think you can see it just above the high point of the leg of the x brace . Jody

Gracias muy mucho Jody!

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Seems the critiquing is done.
Thank you all very much. I'm comming away from this a lot of new ideas that I can surely put to some good use on my #5 build. Think I'll have an MGD and hit the sack!
Peter

I have heard that the rubber mesh mats were not good (I don't remember why...). I've been using a solid rubber work mat that I got from HF. Is that bad too? Can you remind me why and is there a good substitute? I like the way it holds the work steady on the work bench, especially when carving braces...

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Silicone is used as the release agent in its manufacture...

A good substitute is to carve your braces with the top/back in the proper, respective dish - the sand paper holds everything in place.

OK...time for my monthly rant on polymers (rubber or plastics) contacting guitars.

Mario's right about the silicone release agents being used during the molding operation and it's difficult to measure how much is present and whether it's even possible for it to be removed. I won't even use them to line my drawers where tools may come in contact. Washing repeatedly may help but I know of no way for us to confirm the presence or absence of silicone.

But wait... there's more! Molded and extruded polymers contain plasticizers in their formulations. The softer they are, the more plasticizers they contain. This also applies to expanded polymers (closed or open cell sponge). The problem is, these plasticizers leach out over time and can react with items that touch their surface (like guitars). That's why I never use a guitar stand made from that soft foam that covers the arms that touch the guitars. I just don't wish to take the chance of any plasticizers causing reactions with finishes. If I must, I always drape a towel over a polymer-clad stand.

Hey...we're woodworkers...I'll bet we could make some very nice (and safe) guitar stands.

End of rant...for now!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ - right back at ya bro

I looked at this pic after I took and and decided to call it mullah Omar......