Official Luthiers Forum!

Someone give me an idea here of pros, cons, technique and any general specs if you can.

I like the look, but am afraid they may be more prone to pulling and separating towards the headstock. I have never seen anyone talking about them or using them on here.

Any insights?

Heres the first one I did .. only a few weeks back. It tooka couple days of making jigs to get this one to workout without too much hand effort. One jig does the leading curve, one the back edge, one hte saddle slot and string ramp route, and the last holds it to drill the string holes and ball end recesses (they are all individually done)

I like the look some, but still prefer the pins look. I added pins to this (under the two Es in the string ramp to help with the shear forces - most guys add some kind of pins in there to lock the bridge in .. some like ovations and even Breedlove .. have bolts, although breedloves it to attach the JLD bridge Dr.

It was also more work to glue, as my usual bridge clamp system uses the two E holes for bolts, thus no big C clamps into the soundhole or in the way to clean up glue squeeze out
This one is also on a multiscale .. so the added in math/measuring to figure out the angles complicated things some ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Pros: Look sexy, no pins, quicker sting changes, easier to install, nontraditional, debatable tone benefit

Cons: Less stable if poorly installed, can't Pimp Your Guitar with fancy fossilized prehistoric extinct pre-ban figured horsetiger tusk pins, nontraditional, debatable tone detriment

I've sold quite a few of my design or modded versions of it to various builders:



(Edit : And, as I typed this one Tony apparently posted something to which I must say 'Toight!')

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

One word (name) Doolin.

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Toight ... hmmm, must be a nova scotia thing Bob ....

One other comment .. not that it can or will happen, but I have heard of string ball ends flying across the guitars top finish and marring if a string breaks

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Pros: looks cool, no pins to loose, faster sring changes.

Cons: adds more torsion loading on the tail end of the bridge because you no longer have the string balls clamped against the bridge plate that normally converts a portion the string loading past the saddle in to compressive load.

I repaired a touring pro's Breedlove and he was having a problem with strings breaking due to his heavy strumming style. The frequent breaking strings and hurried string replacments on stage resulted in severe damage of the top behind the pinless bridge. I was almost ready to suggest a clear pickguard behind the bridge for protection, but thought better of it.

One more pro: The soundboard won't be damaged by improper seating of ball-ends.

Anyone want to comment on the tone factor?

I have never seen the sound board damaged by improper ball seating. I have see bridge plates chewed to near smithereens but never to the point the ball was in contact with the soundboard its self.

Personally improper seating of ball ends is kin to not knowing how to wind a sting. Lack of knowledge

I have used both - I started with a pinless design because I thought they were more user-friendly. However, after having some experience with them I think just the opposite. It takes longer to string a guitar with a pinless bridge. And when you want to remove your strings, you have to cut them off before the tuning posts because it is difficult to get the string back out of the bridge because of the coiled strings. Also, it is very easy to damage the soundboard behind the bridge.

Tonally, I haven't noticed any difference at all. I do feel that the pinless design encounters more pulling forces - something I strongly considered with the idea of me offering a warranty on my guitars.


The Doolin pinless design has none of these negatives and is a very smart design in my opinion. Cornerstone guitars does something similar. However, I don't personally care for the aesthetics of having the ball end of the string so visible and thus prefer the aesthetics of a pinless design like that used by Greenfield, McIlory, Lowden, etc... And in terms of the market, most Americans greatly prefer a pinned bridge.

But fantastic guitars can be made using either style of bridge

--
Simon

My bridges are also the Doolin style (whice was invented by J. Elliot) and IMO just as efficient as regular bridges if not more.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Peter, I'd love to see some detailed pictures of your construction of your bridges. Also what do you use for the pins? And do you just glue to the top or do you use some sort of fastener as well (I don't think you do, just asking)

I love the Elliot style pinless bridge and would love to give it a try sometime.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod, go up a few posts, click on the Doolin link, and you'll be treated to a step-by-step, including diagrams and jigs.

I've been pondering it, but I haven't found a local source for appropriately sized music wire (yet).

I've seen it happen, and agreed, it is a lack of knowledge.

Mattia,

Have you tried model shops - the ones who sell bits for making model aeroplanes, cars, boats, trains etc. They usually have brass rod in small diameters.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Another con of a pinless bridge (doesn't apply to the Elliot/Doolin style): with a pinned bridge, you can loosen the strings, pull the pins, and take the ball ends out, thus getting the strings off the saddle without removing them from the tuners. This is a big advantage for working on the guitar's setup, especially the saddle. On and off the strings can go, quickly and easily, as many times as you need to, all the while keeping them wound on the tuning posts, as you tweak intonation, saddle height, etc.

I like the look of pinless bridges, and like the idea of eliminating the weight of the pins (not sure this actually makes a discernible difference in sound, though, and bridge mass can be reduced in other ways anyway), but this factor has, for now, tipped my personal scales in favor of pinned bridges.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Mattia, the Doolin link only gives me 3 photos and a short explanation. No diagrams or jigs as far as I can see.

Dave,

Try this link.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Only concern on that bridge is the string break angle(or lack of) which will somewhat limit the volume....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Well, that's debatable. It's commonly believed to be true, but... myth or fact?... search the archives for Al Carruth's thoughts on the subject, for example.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Here's my version. I've used this design on quite a few guitars and it works very well. It does allow for a string break angle just like a traditional pinned bridge as the strings pass under a cap screw that is located ~.25" behing the saddle. I've built these with traditional 1 pc. saddles as well as a separate saddle for each string. BTW, this is my version of Steve Klein's bridge design that he's been using for over 30 years and he has stated that he got the idea from 15th centry zithers. Just a few days ago I saw somewhere on the web a pinless bridge that CF Martin was using over 150 years ago. There's really not much that hasn't been done before in lutheirie, and I don't think anyone can rightfully claim to have invented the pinless bridge (I don't think that either Jeff Elliot or Mike Doolin would make that claim). Like everything else, it's evolved over time.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com