Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all.

A customer is suppose to send me his 1970s era Martin D35. He claims it lacks in volume. Anyone aware of known volume issues with mid-70s D35 and what could be the cause and solution?

Thanks!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Check the bottom of the saddle. I've run into this numerous times where someone has replaced the saddle and failed to flatten it properly, resulting in poor contact with the bottom of the slot. It's a volume killer, for sure. If that's the problem, just sand the bottom of the saddle until it's perfectly flat. Quick fix.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Thanks for the input.

I'll check that out.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

That wasn't the greatest period for Martin. They were building pretty heavy then as a buffer against warranty claims.
Try the suggested saddle, nut and set ups, but it may just be that particular guitars voice. The irony of it is that the materials they had at their disposal then were superb.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I have had 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and brand spanking new Martins come through my shop with the same complaint. On some, maybe 30% it was a poorly seated saddle. Some the nut was loose, but by far the most frequent cause I have experienced as un-seated string balls with plastic slotted pins, where the ball would wedge in to the plastic pins below the bridge plate and never even touch the bridge plate.

Thanks a lot guys!

Plenty of good information!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I answered you on the MIMF.....

I hate it when y'all ask the same question on various forums

C'mon, grumpy, this isn't like you! Just come on out and say it! Bugs me too.

My experience too with the D-35. 1/4" wide bracing, pretty tubby sounding.

Any hints on what Brian Kimsey does to liven them up?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Again, thanks for all your answers!



Why is that? Just trying to gather as much information as I can. Not everyone browses all forums.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Why is that?

Because you can end up with differing point of views, and create more confusion fr yourself and others. That, and I end up having o write the same thing twice

Bryan(and myself when presented one) basically makes 'em right. Study and learn WHY the 70's Martins aren't up to their earlier and later brethren, and you'll learn what to do. and all of it is reversible, so don't be thinking that you have to hack anything up...

Details.... Devil's in the details.

Diagnose via the internet a problem as vague as "not loud enough" on a guitar you haven't seen yet? How about coming back when it's in your shop?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I have a 1970 D-35 that performs fantastically and is quite loud. About 5 years ago I had the neck re-set and replaced the plastic pins with TUSQ and the saddle with bone and it really made a difference. I can't really tell which of the 3 changes contributed more but its sound was really transformed.

One of the items that Bryan Kimsey does to hotrod Martins is to remove the popsicle brace. Of course, that's not reversible and it voids the warranty.

So if Grumpy refuses to re-type his MIMF advice, can someone who was at that party please do so?

Thanks

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The pop brace is reversible. Nothing stopping anyone from putting one back in.....

Howard, usually, I'd agree completely with you, but in this case, it's a common, and well understood, complaint/issue.

Alain buddy the first thing that I would do is check to see if it has any strings on it - no strings can lead to a lack of volume.........

The next thing that I would do is make sure that there is not a dead cat inside the box.......... This can easily be accomplished by one of two methods.

First you can squirt charcoal starter fluid inside the box and set the guitar on fire. This is best done while listening to Jimi Hendrix playing Purple Haze....... If you smell burning hair further investigation is warranted........

Or you can take a sharp stick, see the recent "one method"/tutorial here on the OLF for making your very own sharp stick. Insert the stick in the sound hole and jab it around the lower bout. If it feels mushy and is wet with strange fluids when you pull it out it generally indicates that there is a dead cat or rodent in the sound hole.......

Good luck......

Bump!

Sooooo...is there going to be any serious discussion about this?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ, I'd rather plant the seed, and let y'all do the growing. That way, if you all find something I, and others, have missed, we all gain! If I spoon feed, then we go nowhere....

Martin didn't change their main specs in the 70's. Not one bit. Same brace dimensions, same top and back thicknesses, same high quality materials.

So, go forth and study, and find the DETAILS that they changed. Rectify those, and those 70's dogs will run with the best from before and after. And you'll have learned a lot of the why's some instruments suck while others, seemingly very similar, shine.

Details.....

Who's diagnosing anything? Just asking for some insight to follow, things to look for when I'll get the guitar.



Basically Mario refered me to Bryan Kimsey's website where several tips are given to tune up a Martin. He also mentioned that the D35 is not renound to be loud. He also added many have a saddle to far back.



I don't know about you but I feel my question has been seriously answered in several ways.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Fear not, Mario...even on those rare occasions that you do spoon feed, I always verify before implementing. So far, your track record is acceptable. Nonetheless, we appreciate the seeding.

As a proud owner of that 1970 model to which I referred, I'll pour over the setup, saddle location and anything else I can determine as to why some might suffer from lack of performance. I apreciate the occasional challenge to seek our own solutions based on published knowledge so "I'm off to see the Wizard" (whoever that might be)

Having spent a lot of time on the UMGF before I started building, Bryan Kimsey was, and still is a respected icon among Martin owners (without the grumpy demeanor) . Aside from replacing the stock materials with bone and removing popsicle braces, Bryan also has taught those folks about proper setup for various styles of play. I still follow his guidelines. He probably makes a good living from those Martin owners doing his Hotrod thing. I can only imagine how many removed popsicle braces litter his shop!

So Alain, on the statement about the saddle being too far back then...If one were to measure and confirm scale length and intonation, one could determine whether a saddle is located properly. Sorry for prolonging the info dump on this but for now you probably need to see the beast before reporting back. In the meantime, my curiosity has been peaked.

Also, since the D-35 is essentially a D-28 except for its 3-piece back, comparing to a presumably loud enough D-28 might reveal something. I also seem to remember something about scalloping and forward shifting that I need to confirm. Sorry...just thinking out loud.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The saddle will be too far forward.....

Not that it matters much to this discussion, but for JJ .. I was under the impression that D35 tops were braced with OM sized braces (1/4 inch) , as opposed to dread size (5/16) on all other D bodies .. hence a lighter braced top, little more bottom on the 35s .... the 3 piece back was merely to use up smaller pieces ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Well I'll be damned! I just checked it out with my Saddlematic and sure enough...the saddle is about 3/16" forward of where it should be. Seems to me that routing out the saddle slot to accommodate a wider saddle would help with intonation, etc. Next step...check intonation. But I have plenty of volume and I honestly don't see how this would impact that issue.

I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't played this guitar since building my first and never really noticed anything unusual. I guess I need to evaluate it in light of the knowledge learned over the past 5 years. When the luthier in Ft. Wayne did the neck reset in 2002 he offered to give me any guitar in the shop in exchange for my D-35...and this is a high-end shop.

Tony...thanks for the info on the bracing difference. Theoretically, that should allow the top to vibrate more freely. Is it possible that it lightened up the top too much?

"Sometimes adding mass to the right spots can actually improve performance" Let's see...where have I heard that before? Hmmm....could it beeeee.........MARIO!!! (he says in his best Church Lady voice)

Since I just returned home I need to get back to this project. I'm back on the case...stay tuned.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Indeed. Sorry for misquoting you. (it was late...)

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Alain,
Here is the website for Bryan Kimsey. This cat seems to cover all known problems of the '70s Martins.

Check him out!

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Thanks Chuck!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)