Official Luthiers Forum!

Stew-Mac has some new offerings that I found this evening and I thought that they might make for interesting discussion.

The first one is the nut slotting gage. This reminds me of something that I have seen in David Collins shop.

What do you think?



http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Measuring_tools/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html

What does it do that a set of feeler gauges don't?

Mine's better.

I like it - though it's instructed use still carries a fatal flaw (in my not-so-humble opinion anyway). They still instruct to measure the string height at the first fret with the string open.

To reference nut height with the string open is to include so many other variables as to make it nearly useless for setting a nut. Now if you take that tool and use it with the string fretted past the 2nd, zero it, then depress before the first, I think it could be a very useful learning tool.

Or better yet, if you could use a digital indicator somehow rigged up to set zero when the tip initially touches the string - now that would be cool.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Foolish, Foolish Z!!

The point is to zero at string height and press to contact fret giving clearance very accurately! Yes! A feeler gage could do the same thing but this would be obviously faster/more precise! Excellent idea I think!

Did you/are you buying one Hesh Buddy?

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I hadn't gotten that far yet Billy bro - I was hoping that someone would tell me how this works here first.....

As with pretty much everything SM sells, way overpriced in my opinion. I scribe a mark level with the first fret and just start filing and checking the look of the string in the slot. Feeler gauges also help, and that little string-lifter that SM sells is great. I just rough the blanks into shape with a powered sander, then file away until I get it right. $58 plus shipping?

Gotta step in here, Banjoboatbob, how many large dedicated luthier supply places are there that you can think of?
Maybe 2 or 3. It does nobody any favors to try and take money away from them and give it to a place like Home Depot or Lowes. When you need an offset diamond fret file and the guy at Home Depot looks at you like you are nuts remember your post and all the other ones like this that I see when there are no more places dedicated to luthiers and repair folks like myself.
I make a living day in and day out using their tools (I have no opinion on this one as yet). I have never had anything
but the best service and attention from Stewmac and they are great folks to boot. I and many others need them to be successful. It will be helpful if people remembered this. It is of no issue to me if something is a couple of bucks more or less, I would rather support the small business. The tool will always pay for itself in the first job anyway. Sorry to be curmudgeonly here but it needs to be said every now and then. Also Bob, I am not really singling you out it just seems to be a trend I see on this and other forums.
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

I really agree with Evan, on this. How many places do you know who have tools made specifically for the lutherie trade? There aren't that many. If they were going to sell a million of them they wluld be cheap. I would bet their production runs are in the hundreds, not thousands. This makes them cost much more to produce. Not only that, they are "good" tools, not junk.

I'm not saying you can't find another way to do things, but if you make your living at it, and this tool saves you 30 minutes of fiddling around, it pays for itself in the first couple of uses. I'd say that makes it worth the price. And, certainly, you will not find a more customer oriented vendor than Stew Mac.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

So it looks like you measure to the first fret, then measure the TOP of the string, then subtract to get the gap ??? Hmm ... hope you dont mess up the math ....

I used to use feeler gauges .. but no more, this is faster and easier .... A repair guy a few years ago taught me. hold the string down between 2 and 3 fret, then look at the gap at the 1st fret .. how much bounce is there from the string to the fret ??? You can then set the low E with a little bounce to it, to almost none on the B and E, and you are done .. it wont go any lower unless you play with a very light touch. I use the SM string lifter to save detuning the middle 4 strings, but still find I dont want to drop either E over the edge on the new finish with full tension .. but you dont need full tension to use this method, just enough to keep the string taught. This is how I teach my students to adjust nut slot depth.

as Michael Collins points out, there are other things in play with measuring just the string height at the first.. like relief and 12th fret action .. this method removes those variables totally.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I guess it's nice to know in thousandths of an inch how high the nut slot is above the first fret (assuming you follow David's directions and don't leave the string open), but until they build a device that will file your slot to the desired clearance without going too far, I don't get how the information is more useful than just looking at the string and tapping it against fret 1 (with it held down between frets 2 & 3).

Of course, everyone should support StewMac, since they are good folks and their continued prosperity is necessary for us all.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Right-on Howard! Besides I would hate to be the one in this thread who the next time they order from Stew-Mac finds out that someone peed in their box......

I like most guys love tools. I use to race quads and had every specialty tool available and loved every one!
Stewmac stuff is no different. Yeah you can probably "make" a lots of what they offer, if you want! For me,
Ill pay for a quality made task specific tool any day. I have spent thousands at Stewmac and have never bought a tool
that I regretted. Reguarding there customer service, as said here before, second to none!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Nut slot depth is IMO one of the most if not the most important adjustments to get right. I think this thing is great. If it saves 2 or 3 nut re-do's it's paid for itself.

I give this tool my support. I think it's very fairly priced (cheaper than I would have expected between parts and small batch machining), and could be a very useful learning tool. I'm not in favor of the instructed use, but it could easily be used in the preferred way of fretting past the second before zeroing.

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding in a few posts as to how the tool actually works though. It appears to have the plunger weighted to drop, so the tip rests on the string directly above the fret. You zero the dial out, then depress the string, and what the indicator will tell you is how far the string moved to reach the fret - the thickness of the string is ruled out of the equation so no need to calculate anything. I would more likely fret past the second, push down on the plunger and see how far it moves - you're not setting the gauge up from any hard reference, just seeing how many thousandths it moves so zeroing out would become a bit tedious.

I think it is a tool that if you buy you should eventually hope to outgrow though. Good learning tool. When learning how to make a nut without a tutor or mentor around, it can be challenging to know exactly what you're looking for, and a tool that quantifies reliably and repeatedly can be very helpful. It can also help to have real numbers to put with a measurement when communicating within a trade. Still, I think this is a good learning tool, and perhaps an occasional reference use for taking notes, but come to rely on it long term and it would be more of a crutch.

And for the record, I think the pencil line is great for roughing in slots, but even a well sharpened one is not accurate or fine enough for final setting in my opinion. And feeler gauges while in theory should be just fine, can have their glitches too when reading down in the .001" range. Using a wide flat sheet to measure the height of a flexible string over a radiused bar leaves a lot of room for false readings - it can be done, but getting better than +/-.0015" accuracy with any certainty can be tough I think. I'm sure some can do it accurately, but I think different people may be likely to get different readings.

I still think the most accurate, reliable, and convenient measuring device for this job is the trained human eye and touch. That said, I'm really glad StewMac made this tool, as it could be very useful to learn with.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Zeroing would be a lot faster with a digital.

The cool thing that this tool would teach you is how many thou a given file and stroke count add up to.

When I first saw the price I thought it was a little "pricey", but the drop indicator looks like good quality so your looking at least about $20.00 easy, then again, Stew-Mac aint selling these things like quarter pounders so it's going to be little higher.

I think it's fair priced and a good idea! The more accuracy the better in my book.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

[quote="Evan Gluck"]Gotta step in here, Banjoboatbob, how many large dedicated luthier supply places are there that you can think of?
Maybe 2 or 3. It does nobody any favors to try and take money away from them and give it to a place like Home Depot or Lowes. When you need an offset diamond fret file and the guy at Home Depot looks at you like you are nuts remember your post and all the other ones like this that I see when there are no more places dedicated to luthiers and repair folks like myself.

Don't get me wrong here, Ivan Cluck, I like Stew Mac, and they do have really, really good service, as well as great online tutorials and products, and the last thing I want to see is the specialty luthier shops closing down. I am also not suggesting that anyone attempt to buy anything quality at the Depoor. In a perfect world, we'd all just drive to the local luthier shop and get what we wanted, or borrow a neck joint router bit from the guy next door.
Any of you pros out there who are putting guitars out of your shops left & right would probably benefit from this tool. I only make 3 or 4 nuts a month and this tool would not pay for itself for a while. And in my case, money is a lot more valuable than time, so saving me 2 or 3 nuts wouldn't really save me a bundle. Lets see, 2 or 3 dollars total for a high-quality bone blank (if you buy someplace other than Stew Mac) and an hour or so of work. If you already have everything you want or need from SM, go ahead and get the thing. If nuts give you a hard time, by all means, get it! If you are like me and still setting up, that money is better spent elsewhere. Besides, dont I have to make 1000 nuts the hard way to get promoted to cocobolo?
Seriously, I have to stand by my comment about SM being overpriced on most things. How many of you out there buy your wood from them? Not too many I'd bet, great wood, but way more expensive than it should be. Same goes for bone blanks, all of their tapes(masking, etc.) except the double-sided (that is good and I can't find it cheaper elsewhere), DVD's and books. I can't tell you how many things I have bought that are the EXACT same item SM sells or extremely similiar for a considerably lower price. I understand that instrument building is an expensive hobby/job/adventure, and I wouldn't give up any of my StewMac tools, even if they did cost too much.
Having said that, let me finish as I began: StewMac is good & they are good people. Long Live Stewmac!

Sorry about the Bob at the end of your name it was unintentional. "Ivan Cluck" though is a bit rude.
You should put your name down to avoid confusion.

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13085&p=184482&hilit=Nelson+StewMac#p184482
Here's a previous discussion on this subject.
StewMac had a prototype of this gauge as ASIA last May.
Nelson

I agree with Ivan...errr...Evan. (just kidding with you Evan) Look you can always (well most times) find things cheaper if you look hard enough. The point is is that S.M. has most all of what you need in one place and they provide excellent service as well. For people in the business...they are not overpriced but right there when you need them. Try getting advice from people of the caliber of Don McRostie or Dan Erlwine from any other profession and it comes with a High Price tag. I buy almost every new tool they come out with. Some, I rarely use, but when the right situation comes along and that tool is needed, it often makes the difference between doing a professional job and a botch job. Does this particular tool fall into that catagory?...probably not because of what it actually is. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth every penny. The quality of their supplies is consistant. That can't be said for a lot of suppliers...in or out of the luthiery profession.

So you have plenty of time to spend, you look around save $1 here a $1 there...that's nice. But don't knock SM for their pricing. They spend a lot of time and money doing R & D for a relatively small buying public. So every tool they produce may not be the biggest thing since sliced bread, but some are really great! Gotta take some losers to get the winners. Now what would happen if everyone stopped buying their stuff because it "was too overpriced". Do you think they would lower their prices? My guess is they couldn't. They would stop doing R&D and the profession would be a harder place to work in. We would lose a lot time trying to invent jigs that were half as good, and in reality (based on the time spent inventing and perfecting) way more costly.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I just noticed that I misspelled "gauge" in the thread's title.........

Hey guys

I was expecting $120 when I finally visited the link. By the way it's being discussed, I was expecting $120. $56 isn't bad at all. How often do we order an extra kerfed lining or four? An extra roll of binding tape, etc. I might grab one of these. Just think about things to save on here and there and it all evens out in the end.

John--I'm not sure you misspelled "gauge" as "gage".
Gage is used quite frequently in industry to describe a measuring device. This can be an interesting discussion (or not) to say the least.
Nelson

Example:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gage
(See fifth item down from top)

Gage is the name of a great luthier, gauge is a tool,

I`ve been helping folks with this one for my entire life.

Also, I have been in this stew-mac conversation before. If you guys think this hobbie is expensive, try ____________ fill in the blank.

My wife is into Kite boarding, each kite is a couple grand. Most hobbies are very expensive.


Matt Gage

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Having fun building guitars

[quote=" but until they build a device that will file your slot to the desired clearance without going too far, I don't get how the information is more useful than just looking at the string and tapping it against fret 1 (with it held down between frets 2 & 3).

Of course, everyone should support StewMac, since they are good folks and their continued prosperity is necessary for us all.[/quote]

Agreed, both. Well Said.

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13