Official Luthiers Forum!

Besides the 1 cent listing fee will run my dear friend Rod the wrong way............

Lance Brock and whoever else in involved in the auction,
My $.02 prolly isnt worth that much... but perhaps there is a hint of an inkling of something useful in what I have to say so I will add it...
This is funny to me because at the "other" luthier forum ... thier auction site was doing pretty good biz!
However it was a different format - a live auction, on site, hosted on Fri/Sat/sometimes Sun. evenings..
The inventory was prelisted so people could see what was for sale in advance,,,
then when the auction block came up there would be fierce competition for the purchase of certain lots at times...

I believe that this OLF auction could be reworked into a workable system because
A the membership base is far larger here that the other forum,
and
B there is a wealth of items at every swap meet that are snapped up in a week long buying frenzy which leads me to believe that a constant auction sales scheme could work as well...

Because the other auction format is an event, "a happening" if you will .. people get quite excited for it.
I quite honestly forget about the OLF auction site quite often...
So please try it this way first, mabye? before you hang it up?...
Im almost quite certain that it Would fly this way!
Famous TV Quack Dr Phil always says thats "the oldest definition of insanity is to try the same thing over and over again, and to expect a different result"...
Lance - are you crazy ??
I jest of course.... I love the idea of this service - and Id love it to be a revenue generator for the OLF as well...
mabye a rethinking of "the basis" of the auction itself would be the best idea for making it a successful venture.
Cheers
Charlie

Filippo
Im not sure exactly what your getting at here,,,
and no matter what your opinion of the folks "there" or that site as a whole... they do have a working model of an auction, one that generates revenue for its operators - which is the point we are trying to get too,,,,no?
Please criticize the idea if you wish, but leave criticism of other luthierie sites out of it, we all know where that leads!
Cheers
Charlie
PS I couldnt agree with you more about the Swap Meet, its capital A Amazing!! I love it and have well over $1000 on both swaps so far..
(Im anxiously awaiting the next one... as Im sure are many others - so you know that idea is a winner!? right?!) SO
Mabye a good idea would be a Bi-monthly Swap Meet (or whatever timetable Admins like)
to generate $$$ for the OLF in lieu of auction schemes altogether???

So you're suggesting that the OLF make folks like Alan Carruth pay for the privilege of patiently answering our newbie questions, again and again?

That sounds like a 'non-starter' to me.

John

Yeah, I want to buy plans for an OM

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Again, I don't think there is anything (wrong) with the LuthiersAuctions interface, or using it as our Classified section.
I think the issues is making sure that we all know its there.
Also, I didn't make this post to ask for a vote on what to do. I do appreciate all your ideas and help, but for now, we will be trying to promote the Auction site.
I know that every other forum in the world has a "classified" section, but if its ok, id like to be a little bit different than the rest.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I don't think having the swap meet more than twice a year is a good idea. I believe it would take away from the "event". Don't get me wrong I do love the swap meets.

Anything you want to create, be it an auction site, classifieds, or swap meets. Requires that people spend the time it takes to bring things to sell, and prices are not out of whack. If people don't invest the time and effort, the "space" is worthless. The auction site and swap meet are great examples. Both have had the attension of memebership here, actually the swap had very little effort put into the format or interface compaired to the auctions site. The swap is a success because people are willing to spend their time and efforts putting things up for sale, the only reason the auction site is not as successful is that not enough people have put forth the effort to make it a sucess(of course it takes a LOT more effort to keep a year round space full of items vs a twice yearly event like the swap).

Personally, If I had the time to sell all year, I would open my own store again. I had a better system for showing inventory than the swaps or auctions offer(at least it was much more efficient, and allowed me to load and show a whole lot more pictures). I am happy to participate in the swaps because it fits my schedule so well. Get in, play for a week, pack everything up, send it off. After a few swaps I figured out how to make things go better at my end, so it is pretty efficient.

People often think it is all about bringing "buyers" (which is only part of the equation). You have to have "sellers", and how difficult it is to sell may turn away many sellers. I am sure any of the sponcers would be filling up the auction site regularly if it was as efficient as their own web sites. If you want the seller to offer discounted prices, and it is more time consuming(costs more to sell), then add additional fees and it is even harder. So to make the auctions work, we need to draw sellers (which is just what Lance is asking for). Like I mentioned, Swap Meet and Auction site, One the sellers bring items to the table at pretty good prices, the other less sellers. I think both had the full attension or draw of the forum itself (actually the Auctions probably had more promotion).

FWIW; Mario's live auctions require him to spend three plus hours twice a week just hosting, he has to send out a HUGE amount of emails and automated reminders, and then bill, package and ship a handful of items every week. That is a LOT of time he spends for every dollars worth of goods he sells. He sells in the auction format which makes some things too expensive and some sell too cheap(after averaging everything it works out ok for him). By having the other sellers offer items, he is drawing more interest. He still has to host the event live while they sell items (l don't believe he is charging any fee for that hosting, so that is just another cost of doing biz. for him). He is driving what sucess there is on his auctions.

Sorry to rant and ramble,
Rich

Rich
You prolly know more about the auction at the other site than I - its another model and warrants some consideration.. perhaps its not the answer... I hope one is found!

Filippo - I think you could have phrased it differently perhaps...thats all...
While the systems in place elsewhere dont work on the level we are on - its works for those within that system... I dont think thats strange at all... just other bands in a large spectrum of luthierie forumdom... of which we are only a part, not the total... I like many different parts and fit in each to varying degrees,,,
Cheers
Charlie

I wanted to add Filippo - that I dont want to have a rash with you... and didnt mean to come off condescending,,, if I did Im sorry...
However I think you know as well as I, that there are certain hot button topics around here. I didnt think your statement was particularily inflammitory, but such mentions have ended in a downward spiral of poisonous discourse before,,,
I hope we find a suitable solution to our problems in this thread and I appreciate your input and suggestions - as many as possible will help Lance and Brock figure out thier best option..
Cheers
Charlie

Charlie,
I think the auction site and software Lance and Brock put in place is not an issue(it is a fine space, and offers all the great tools one could ask for, including classifieds, all forms of auctions, store fronts). It all comes down to sellers getting after it and making use of it. If the auction site had loads of interesting offerings, people will shop.

The point I was making about Mario's auctions is that it requires his time and effort(pretty significant really). I doubt seriously it would be reasonable to ask Lance or Brock to spend 3-4 hours per. day to host live auctions. Also the software and infustructure would have to be purchased. I think it would be a kick as a big event every now and then, just not sure if the costs and time would be something Brock or Lance would want to take on.

Peace,Rich

Hi Lance,
I am beginning to realize that there is a lot about the OLF web site that I don't know about. Is there some primer on where to find things on the site (beyond the obvious - the FAQs, the top navigation area and the search functions)? Your post regarding the auction site was the first time I heard there was such a beast.

Just point me in the right direction.

Cheers!
Rick

Im guessing thats it for the auction site -
Ive checked in a few times over the last week - and well....
you can insert your own tumble weed blowing-western movie scene-sound effect whistle -------> "here"
Too bad - I dunno why its not working out,,, but there doesnt seem to be much action..
Cheers
Charlie

I think alot of people dont have extra cash right now ,,,, Jody

I will see if I can find time to load up some more auctions. I spent probably three hours just listing auctions. I am sure if I did auctions more often I would have templates built and could speed that aspect up. I am not much of a fan of competative auctions, but buy it now listings means I can't try to ship a group of auction items at basically the same time(really important to me). I will see if I can just make a note that items sold will be shipped on a given date, and that would let me just do buy it at this price. If most people are like me they hate waiting till the last few minutes of an auction to bid, and not know if your going to win or not.

Rich

Rich,

I was very surprised that the Myrtle set that you just offered at auction was not snatched up by someone. A gorgeous set at a fair price.

Then there was a colorful Lutzii top you had marked as "student grade" and offered at $15. The photos at the auctions are too small for me to really tell, but I have a hunch that it is a wonderful top that will make a fine guitar - just not the creamy uniform color some folks associate with higher grade tops.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Besides tonewoods and such... is there a spot for tools? I know I can't always go out and buy a brand new PC Laminate router and if someone has a used "worked good for me, but now I upgraded" sort of thing I know I would have jumped on it.

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Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

I really appreciate the efforts and expense Lance and Brock have invested in the Luthier's Auction site, and I have bought things in the Luthier's Auction. But I have always thought it would struggle as a separate site, and I continue to believe it will struggle no matter what efforts we all commit to making. Here's why.

I look at this site every day. I don't look at the Luthier's Auction site every day. Why? Because, while reading/talking about guitar building is part of my everyday routine, shopping for luthier stuff is not. Nor should it be -- that would be prohibitively expensive. So I don't look at the Luthier's Auction site daily any more than I take a daily glance at StewMac, LMI, Allied, etc. I look at those sites -- including Luthier's Auction -- only on those days when I make an affirmative decision to go shopping for Luthier stuff.

Now, the OLF is part of my daily routine. Some people drink coffee in the morning; I browse this forum. Unlike the Luthier's Auction site, this site is a habit. If in the course of looking at OLF as part of my daily routine, I were to come across a post in which someone offered a bargain on a great piece of wood, then I'd certainly consider purchasing it.

That's the difference between having people sell stuff on a "related" site that people like me don't make part of our daily routine and letting them sell stuff here. Allowing sales here will generate purchases by people like me -- i.e., people who weren't otherwise thinking about buying something today, but whose interest is piqued by something they happen across. It would create sales that would not otherwise happen.

Now, I certainly understand the tension that can arise with sponsors if sales are allowed on this site. I won't be critical if Lance and Brock continue to believe that they can't allow sales on this site. No complaints here. But I do believe that the best way to make the Luthier's Auction succeed is to make it a part of this site. Make it a forum here. Allow and encourage people to put a post in the main forum that says "check out the great deal just posted in the auction forum." If that won't wash with our sponsors, I understand, but I think that's what it would take to make it work.

And slightly OT, I'd like to see the sponsors putting a post in the main forum whenever they're running a tremendous special. Like I say, I don't normally go to the Allied site on a daily basis, but if they have some bargain going and I learn about it here, that would be most welcome.

Kelby, You make good points. I doubt the sponcers are going to take issue with auctions or a person selling this or that. There is competition amounst many of the sponcers as many of them offer similar goods. I would hope that they would take issue if people are willing to turn the OLF into a store front without paying a fee as they do when they become sponcers (that would seem very unfair to the paying sponcers). Personally I don't like seeing a lot of "go look at what I am selling" threads in the main discussion forum, it seems like it is bumping subjects where people may be asking advise or offering information more directly related to building itself. The only way the auction site will draw interest and have more to offer than say Ebay, is if enough people fill it with items regularly. Several of the sponcers have offered good in auctions, but I suspect it became time consuming and cost prohibitive for them to maintain listing often. After all they already have a full time store front, to spend more time and money listing auctions at a discounted price may not be very appealing. Especially when a "super offer" could be used to draw traffic to there business site.

I think it was very cool of Lance and Brock to set up such a wonderful tool for everyone. I am not sure if there is anything more they can do to make it appealing and draw more people to sell. After all there is hardly any fee for listing(pennies) at the moment, so obviously it is as accessable as they can make it. They also allow and are currently encouraging postings in the main forum to inform people that you have listed items. If people want the tool they need to use it, if not Lance and Brock should stop wasting good money for it.

Dennis, I was kinda supprised nobody picked up that Myrtle set. It has amazing curl and color (absolutely my favorite of all the items I listed). As far as soundboards, seems like everyone loves Lutz, and the sets that have color are great deals if you like color(structurally they are as good or better than most others). I have used Lutz, and done a bit of compairing to other species(species? Hybrids?). I find some of the stiffer sets very similar to Sitka(at times I have even seen some that remind me of a cross between doug fir and sitka *but I don't think those species hybridize), and some of the sets almost fall into a extreamly stiff Engleman catagory(which makes for a very nice set). A real mixed back if you will. Of course that seems like it would make sense as Lutzi is just a hybrid of species that grow in that area.

Peace,Rich

As I was reding throught these posts Rich said alot of what I was feeling.
If you have "swap meets" more often, you will water them down.
I like the idea of a clasified over auction as I can buy or sell that item now rather than waiting a week and then wait for shipping.

If I auction something off I am putting it out there to get the maximum dollar for the item, that is the purpose of an auction, why else would I sit around and wait for a week for it to sell? Therefore I would list it where I have the most exposure, "Insert the worlds biggest auction site here".
If I just have something I am not using sitting around and think someone else from the forum may be able to use, I am going to put a good price on it and offer it for sale on the forum, in a classified add.

My 2 cents

David O

I'm sure it can be a successful site, but some work needs to be done in order to make it so. There's a user base here saying it's not the way they use the internet to find things for sale, and a website that doesn't seem be getting any traffic. The solution is either to make it good enough to get people to change the way they use the internet or to adapt it to the way people are saying they'd currently use it.

Other than eBay, are there any successful auction sites that can stand as an operational model or a model for the user interface? Adapting the colors was a good move. I think it would be good to move the login above the category listing and change the type treatment of the category listing. Take the >'s away and make each category bold black and size 18 or so with 130%-150% line spacing. Also line up the edges with the header image (the header is wide to the left). I really believe those things would begin to make it seem more pro. I bet Dwight Knowlton would have ideas that would make it look amazingly good and desirable to be part of. The design of these sites really is the first step in winning the battle if the functional side is already up to snuff.

I'm a bit amped on design right now. Yesterday I picked up Adobe's CS3 Design Suite 3 Premiere and Apple's Aperture suite I love academic pricing!

I would certainly use the site if it were to have more listings on it. Being a young student, money is not something that I have a lot of. Although I do occasionally get a little help from mom and dad, I never seem to have the funds to buy any tools or wood that I need to keep up this expensive hobby. I know that if there were listings, I would certainly bid because an auction site is a place where I can get quality tools and wood for a good price, and a price that is usually lower than if I were to go out and commercially buy it.

I guess the best thing that we can do is make sure that we get more sellers into the site, then more people would use it. Maybe some items from the upcoming swap meet could be listed on the auction site? I will see if I can send some nice emails to eBay vendors encouraging them to post some of their products on the Luthier Auction site.

I personally would like this site to be a success, and would be much more likely to use it if it actually has listings available. I will see if I have anything that I can list, thought I can't promise much. I am just a beginning luthier.

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-Rob Eckert
Ann Arbor, Michigan