Official Luthiers Forum!

I have been reading this forum and commenting from time to time for a little over a year now. Here is my situation. I really feel like I would like to make guitars for a living! I am 19 and have 2 years of school under my belt. I was gong to transfer to a 4 year university to get my last 2 years of a business degree. But I really don’t care about business…. I know I am young but I can see myself building and being happy for the rest of my life. Admittedly I have not even finished my first (although I have enough wood and who knows what else to finish another 10) I have finished an electric. I just don’t have time with being in school! That’s frustrating as building is all I think about. Ok all that ranting to say.

Those of you who do do it for a living. Any regrets? Thoughts?

Are you making enough money to support yourself?

What training, schooling, and experiences do you value most?

I am currently studying under Rob Girdis when I can…. Again stupid school usually trumps guitar stuff. I was also thinking I could take a 1 quarter intensive CNC program at my community college. I think that could come in very handy.

My dad says go with your passion. My mom says get a business degree. I feel a little split : ) HELP!

Tough one!
I'd get the business degree-THEN use that to your advantage to finance a guitarmaking habit!!!!!!!!

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

That is ironic, I make guitars and want to be 19! Kidding! (just about the guitars part... I am on my second)

Seriously, listen to both your Mom and your Dad. They are both right. You are young and have lots of years to learn the craft. Stay in school.

There are lots and lots of very well educated luthiers here, and it ain't hurt them none. On the contrary, it takes lots of skills and knowledge to be successful, regardless of what you do.

My 2 cents.

It's important to know what can go wrong & how to fix it!
Bryan Galloup's school is a great starting point!

Knowledge is power!
mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Don't overlook the fact that being a luthier is first and foremost a business. If you are half way through your business degree you should try to finish and you will be ahead of the game.

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

Another vote for listening to both of your parents! You can be the best luthier (put any other craft here) and if you do not have a head for business, you will not survive trying to do it for a living. You have to be able to wear both hats and also to know when to take one off and put the other on. If it were me at your age I'd keep the passion burning by doing whatever time will allow towards building, but I'd also really hit the books on learning how to keep a small business afloat. If any of your parents, relatives or friends are small business people, start the conversation with them now. Its an artform that those that haven't done it can't really appreciate. The best of luck to you. Don't despair -- two years will go by in a flash and never, ever give up.

_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

If you think about it... A business degree is about guitars isn't it! Mom and Dad are in complete agreement!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

true true... i guess your all right. 2 years SEEMS like a long time but i know in the long run i will help me in building for a living and is something to fall back on if building doesnt work...

NOW you're talkin...get the degree, then you have options...guitarbuilding might seem like the absolute best thing in the world right now, but no one is waving money and deadlines at you. Believe me, ANY job can get old when the romance goes out of it and its just a job. With the degree, you will have more knowledge, and more options with what to do with it.

Also, read "The E-Myth" - its about what it takes to be a true business owner, and not just an employee of your own business...big difference...

Keep the dream alive, and start building for your friends and college acquaintances. Sell them if you can, and see if you are really cut out for being a business owner...

_________________
Mitch

Take the summer off and try building a guitar, then FINISH THE DEGREE. We are in a recession. The degree will help you if you have to fall back on it. This is a business, and its expensive.

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Get the degree...get the degree...get the degree...then pursue guitars if that's what you want to do. But get the degree, graduate at the top of your class and don't let ANYTHING get in your way until you do.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Get the degree. If can swing the money, go to Galloup (my predijudice as went there) maybe in a summer break. If not there are other 4-8 week classes that may be less expensive and get that training, and maybe one near you. If can find a builder in area of the school (college)and you can work it out, try a non paid apprenticeship. Working for a good and established builder, will give the experience of a shop and building, in addition what it takes to be a profitable business. If you can work them together. Good thing is your 19 and a lot of time ahead of you, don't need to rush it. If you can do this work, this will still be there.

A building class is fine and good thing. Really learning the building and learning the business end is experience, so try and work them in together. You won't go wrong with the education, and if you become a good builder and do it full time, you will be ahead of the game. If you do the degree and do this as a part time builder business or a hobby you will be fine. This can be a tough business and lots of competition. You need to be ahead of the game in skill and business. You can be a great builder, but lack the business end and fail and visa versa. Both will make your chances much stronger.

I had a young roommate at school and he just did the buildiing school and is a good builder. He did go work with Bourgeois a few yrs. and another builder. Haven't heard from him in awhile, but was wanting to get back to school as that will be even more beneficial in this or any other thing he may do. Helps you grow and be more rounded in lot of ways.

Your mom and dad are right (the older you get, the smarter they get) I would tell and have told my son or grandson the same thing.

When I was 19 I thought my parent knew nothing, by the time I got to 21 I was amazed how much they had learned in those two years!

It is never wrong to get as good an education as possible, I started Univerity at 17, now I'm 57 and still at University. Finish the degree, get an MBA or whatever the US equivalent, then when you have the security of a fall back position, consider learning the craft of guitar making.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Get the degree.

Guitars become far less inspiring if you're relying on them to pay the rent. I've repaired guitars, bar tended, been a bouncer, sold absinthe, gambled professionally, invested money and have done all kinds of stuff to keep from having to streamline a guitar just to pay the rent. It sucks the inspiration out of you if you're making one to fend off your landlord rather than please a client or satisfy your creativity.

I'm not sure I would ever advise someone to become a guitar maker and make their living from it. Unless you were the son of a great and could make $200,000 building 8 guitars a year.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

1) Lutherie (or other craft when practiced as art) does not fit any conventional model of a business; "The E-Myth" is pretty much irrelevant to it, except to illustrate how far it is from the rational business model.

2) Not coincidentally to (1), only a handful of luthiers actually make a decent middle class income at it, that would support a family in a relatively modest lifestyle. The great majority have other income or a working spouse to anchor their economy.

3) Without having built one acoustic guitar or worked for a year or more doing full-time repairs in a good shop, you have very little idea what being a luthier entails.

4) Notwithstanding all of the above, at 19, you have plenty of time to go back to school. A lot of education is wasted on the young; I say this as someone with a fairly ridiculous amount of higher education. If you can get a lutherie gig, go for it. You are very unlikely to actually make this a lifelong career, but IMO one rarely regrets following ones passion, especially when one has so few obligations, and time to change course.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Use the business degree to make the luthery work for you. Dumbest mistake I ever made was not getting my PHD.

at 19 I would stay stay in school awhile , lutherie may sound very renaisance and artsy . but the trades are not what they used to be , in the us anyways .you probably dont want to hear it but, you have much to learn yet ! you need to develope many skills to build a guitar let alone finance and run a business !
learn as mich as you can in school, get a job part time and/or summers where you can learn to use the tools , safely and skillfully. develope your hand skills . have much fun while you can . after you earn your degree you will have a better idea if guitar making is something you still want to do ! Then you may want to go to work for awhile as an apprentice or at one of the larger guitar manufacturers , learn all you can about the building of guitars ! in the mean time you can always begin tinkering with guitars whenever you want to part time !Good luck have fun !Jody

Howard, as much respect as I have for you and what you post on the various forums, I have to disagree. The crux of what the "E-Myth" is about is the illusion that people fall under that not "working for the man" is the do-all end-all of what being self employed is all about. You may be coming at this from the "when practiced as art" angle, so perhaps you get a pass on that one, but this kid wants to do this to put food on the table. That's not art, thats a business. Its easy to think that you can make it in lutherie when you see what the price of a custom hand built guitar goes for...simple math says if you can build 12-15 guitars a year at $5K-$7k per sale, you could perhaps make a go of it. But people forget little things like, oh, costs of materials, dealing with customers "payment schedules", or just dealing with customers period, as I'm sure you are very well aware.

The E-Myth focuses on trying to get the "technicians" that we all are, to start thinking like "business owners". In other words, what would life be like if you weren't the one building the guitar, but running the business instead...

I agree that its not the "artist" angle, but for this young person that posted the question, it would be a good and thoughtful read...

_________________
Mitch

I was in the same situation once....many ages ago. I graduated from High school at 16 and went straight to college. I hated every minute of it. Parents didnt know anything so I had to prove them wrong. I had 3 years of college in by the time I reached 19.

Ended up that I did prove them wrong....sort of... It just took me an extra 15 years to get to where I would have been had I stayed in college for ONE more semester.

Get the degree. Build yourself a few guitars to prove your worth in the trade. This is one business where age does obtain a little more respect in the industry than other industries. Put your guitars in the hands of as many top players as possible and hope that the demand will increase. You can use the business degree to help you with marketing your wares and running the business end of the business.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Use your college educated career to finance and build your business.

Really. Just never look at your career as an end unto itself.

The learning curve in the intrument business can be expensive. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, thats a good thing.

Get the degree. Just don't go and get stupid once someone gives you a paycheck... like expensive cars, houses, etc. Roll the money back into your dream. Its only 2-4 freakin years!!

Mike

The honest truth is that lutherie does not pay well. It does for some guys (think Olson, Ryan, Traugott, etc...) but not for most of us. The odds are you will never have much money being a builder and will struggle financially for many years just to "make ends meet".

The lutherie market is growing (more and more customers are becoming aware) but it is also getting competitive. Do you have the discipline to make it? Do you have an artistic sense and an eye for design? How will you finance your shop?


I think the ideal way to approach this is to get a "real" job first and have a solid education - at the very least, you should get your Bachelor's. You then have a financially valid way to build and develop your skills as a builder and prototype before getting your name out there. And if you find you can't make it as a builder, then you always will have something else to fall back on.


In this day and age, it is absolutely foolish to not get as much education as possible. By the way, this is coming from someone who is only 27 years old. I am building full-time now but have a bachelor's in Biochemistry and worked in a lab for several years to pay for all my tools and supplies. Making a living with lutherie is much, much harder than you would think on the onset. I certainly have no regrets but you will have to make huge sacrifices to do it. So my advice is to have something else you can support yourself with before you go down this road.

--
Simon

Well I have to go against the grain here (pardon the pun....) and suggest something different.

If being a Luthier is the most important thing in the world to you and you have been considering this for a long time I think that you should go for it.

I agree that almost everything that I have read in this thread is very sound advice indeed. However..... if you are the sort who has a track record of achieving what ever it is that you set out to do AND you recognize that as the others have indicated this will not be easy I believe that becoming a Luthier would be a very worthy goal. I also thought that it was notable that you did in fact have a goal - some folks do not..........

When I was your age the last thing I wanted to hear was people saying "when I was your age......" and because of this I believe that unfortunately I rarely really heard what ever people had to offer to me. But, although I probably didn't benefit from what others had to share with me because of my listening problem I also did not get prematurely scared away from my own goals - what ever they were at any given moment.........

If it were me and I felt about Lutherie as I believe you may I would pursue the business degree as a minor and the Lutherie education as the major - simultaneously. I would also suggest considering the fields of manufacturing engineering and industrial design as well or instead of business. Any of these disciplines will compliment your Lutherie goals.

Lastly the times they are a changing economically speaking and as the US becomes more and more a service based economy, like it or not, many traditional pursuits may not be as in demand in the future as they have been in the past. It could be, and I am speculating here, that those who can create fine instruments will be more in demand in the future then they have been in the past. What I am saying is that I believe it is possible that with Lutherie you may end up in the right place at the right time and that the current and past view of Lutherie as a profession is subject to change. I can't know but I can list numerous traditional professions that are currently suffering from outsourcing or technological obsolesce.....

If it means the world to you to become a Luthier I say go for it.

Great advice. Refreshing for my ears, too.

two (2) years is a minor nose bleed, listen to those of us that have some real world experience. I'm 51, been married 31 of those years, have had major health issues due to an auto accident and other problems during the years. NO ONE person can plan there lives. Yes you can make a plan, but you must be a diversified person and learn everything that you can. Most important now is school. That will get you a job, whereas you will be able to support your wants and needs (guitar building, sex and whatever,(THE BIG PICTURE)). Then as you move forward, your wisdom and experience will support what you can and cannot do at any given time in your life based on what's happening at that moment.

Trust me on this, if someday you are able to walk and the next day you are not, all of these small things come into play.

I was lucky that I can now walk, (It took almost 4 years to get it back ) I almost lost my legs and my life, and now I just enjoy the few moments of time each day in my small shop. Yes, I still have problems and the onset of other health issues are effecting me, but I take each day for what it's worth. I also enjoy the fact that I have an education and I still have people/companies wanting me to solve problems or work for them.

I enjoy each day and family for what it's worth now. Be positive and move towards what the long haul may bring, not the instant gratification of what YOU want, as your life involves others as well and they are part of your BIG picture, as well as you are part of YOUR BIG PICTURE. YOU have plenty of time but no time. I know that's a dichotomy in words, but I hope you understand the underlying meaning?

Go for your degree and your love of guitars. Somewhere, you will find a medium point. Just keep all of your options open.

I apologize if I sound like a ranting father, I have 3 kids and 4 grand kids and I'm no longer in a position to help when one needs it most from a financial standpoint (there was a time I could) as my health has taken a precedence and is consuming my dollars.

Make the right choice for yourself, follow your heart but be realistic, remember others that you count on or those that may count on you WILL be effected by your choice. So please look at the BIG PICTURE and choose wisely.

Sincerely,
Mike, a Father,a Grand Father and hopefully an online friend.

Mitch, my recollection of this book is a few years stale. But the gist of what I got from it is that if you see starting a business as a way to do something you love without having a boss, by being your own employee (which is the "myth"), you are going to be disappointed because so much of your time will be spent running the business that you would get to do more of what you love by being someone else's employee. On the contrary, he says that the reason to start a business is that you have identified a need the business can fill profitably, and that your objective should be to build the business to profitability and then sell it, and start another business. The reason to buy or own a business is not to do what the employees do, but to make a profit from their labor and pay yourself well on top of that for managing the business, plus a good return on capital. Not many businesses actually pay the owner well enough to do all that; in most cases the owner is just getting paid as a manager, and could have been hired to be a manager by someone else without having the capital investment and risk of being the owner. So if you have the ability to start a business that is successful, you would do better to sell and start another. If I'm recalling correctly, he says real entrepreneurship is the business of starting and selling businesses.

Since a single luthier starts a business, and then is the manager, and laborer, and person with the capital investment, and has a business that can't be sold because it is all dependent on him, he is doing everything wrong under this model.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.