Official Luthiers Forum!

If the hybridized spruces of englemann and white spruce is Lutz, what is the hybridized spruce between red and black spruce? By the way, this does come out of the Adirondack Mountains....

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Reguards,

Ken H

Can't really answer your question Ken but I can clarify our local Spruces. It may be an interesting discussion!

Lutz is what is referred to by the local forestry department as "Hybrid Spruce". It is a Sitka hybrid that can and does include White and Engelmann Spruces. This hybrid occurs in the Cascade Mountains which separate the coast area from the interior of the north eastern Pacific. The hybrid is known as Picea lutzii. It has another common name of Roche Spruce. This hybrid can also include only Sitka and White Spruce. In the area where I live, kind of in the middle of the Coastal Range, Engelmann Spruce does not enter into the hybrid until elevations of about 3500 feet. The trees that I typically harvest are from the 900 to 1400 foot range in elevation (some down to 300) so it is doubtful that Engelmann is included in any Lutz Spruce that is sold for musical instruments. At 3500 feet elevation the trees are quite a bit smaller, very twisty and knarly and are poor candidates for tonewood (of guitar size anyway)!

The other "hybrid" that is common is what the forestry officials term "interior spruce". This is typically a White/Engelmann hybrid (but I think that black spruce enters in there somewhere as well). I have been told by people in the know, like Larry Stamm, that there no pure Engelmann stands anymore, at least not in British Columbia, and all "Engelmann" is really an Engelmann/White Spruce hybrid.

Now, let's hear the east coast story!

Shane

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Canada

Thanks for the education Shane! It is MOST appreciated.

I never knew that other spruces were hybridizing also, but it only stands to reason. One of my friends in the sawmill business (over 30 years) has been telling me about some trees that he cant tell if they are red or black. By the way, this guy knows trees VERY well. Most of what he saws goes into construction lumber. At this point he is thinking that the logs he has are hybrids of red and black. The only thing for sure is that they come out of the adirondack mountains, which makes them Adirondack spruce?

I'm curious if any of our wood vendors have run into this before and if so, what do they call it? Is it any good for instruments?

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Reguards,

Ken H

Grant Goltz had mentioned to me that Black Spruce in Minnesota never really reaches the size to make 2-piece guitar tops, but that if it did it would be considered as another premium Spruce. So, I would guess that the Red + Black hybrid (makes me think of a Chinese restaurant) should be good, maybe even great. Though I suppose a tonewood can only have potential until the luthier's skill brings it out. Grab some, Ken, and make it sing!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I won't pretend to be knowledgeable about forestry but… In the area where I live (Western mountains of Maine) it is an ultra rare ocurence to see spruces, or other trees, big enough for guitar sets, regardless of species (except ashes and white birches perhaps, and sugar maples around old farms).
Now New-England and most of the North-East have been mowed over at least 3 times since European settlement. Apples, wool and potatoes having been the principal economy in Maine at different times. It is amazing to look at how the landscape has evolved in the past 3 centuries. Here in western Maine since subsistence farms have been abandonned throughout the 20th century, the woods are growing back, but it is a very young forest except in some selected and protected areas.
I heard red spruce stands are slowly recovering since replanting decades ago.
As Todd points out mature (and not so mature…) trees are harvested for paper mulch and lumber.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I've grabbed a 26" dia. black spruce. Excellent tonewood. Even marshes have high, dryer grounds...... Excellent tonewood. No, not for sale.... It's one of the few perks of living in the sub-arctic <g>

Red, white and black spruces readily hybridize. We also have NO way of knowing which of these spruces is actually on the 'golden era' guitars of the 20's, 30's ad early 40's. All we know is that Martin was buying logs from a certain area, but that area contained all three spruces, and surely, hybrids. The thinking is that they would have purchased the red spruce, because it is, in specification, the better of the 3, but really, once cut, once the needles and cones are gone, and even with the bark still in place, it's often impossible to tell one from the other, ESPECIALLY if it's a hybrid. They may have wanted red, but we'll never know for sure how many of those great ones, are, and aren't.

My point? Don't choose by the species, but by the product. Good spruce is good spruce......