Official Luthiers Forum!

Mitch, my recollection of this book is a few years stale. But the gist of what I got from it is that if you see starting a business as a way to do something you love without having a boss, by being your own employee (which is the "myth"), you are going to be disappointed because so much of your time will be spent running the business that you would get to do more of what you love by being someone else's employee. On the contrary, he says that the reason to start a business is that you have identified a need the business can fill profitably, and that your objective should be to build the business to profitability and then sell it, and start another business. The reason to buy or own a business is not to do what the employees do, but to make a profit from their labor and pay yourself well on top of that for managing the business, plus a good return on capital. Not many businesses actually pay the owner well enough to do all that; in most cases the owner is just getting paid as a manager, and could have been hired to be a manager by someone else without having the capital investment and risk of being the owner. So if you have the ability to start a business that is successful, you would do better to sell and start another. If I'm recalling correctly, he says real entrepreneurship is the business of starting and selling businesses.

Since a single luthier starts a business, and then is the manager, and laborer, and person with the capital investment, and has a business that can't be sold because it is all dependent on him, he is doing everything wrong under this model.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Well thanks to everyone for there input. I respect all of you as I have learned and been inspired my many of your posts. And you’re all right. Being 19 I FEEL like I have to build NOW. But if I have to just read this forum, tinker in robs shop when I can (I have a humble shop that can get many things done as well.) thickness sander, band saw, lathe, chisels, ECT.
Also I am building a bass guitar for a buddy. Even that has been kind of stressful as he calls me ever few days to ask if it finished! haha I guess I never really thought that stress I am feeling would be times x factor if I build acoustics for others. Not so say I will not. But maybe like you I should first look at getting a degree, then building a shop as I work and build for myself. I have seen your guitar rack Hesh and it always seems to have way to many guitars on it for one person. I think I could do with on of those in my room....

Well if everyone said, “Go be a luthier and all your wildest dreams will come true.” That would be one thing. But most of you….ok probably all of you are much older, and wiser.
Also I was looking to get the John Mayes DVD’s any of you have a set you could part with? Price? I have heard many of you talk highly of them.

Hmmmmmmm. Just wondering... How many folks in actually have a degree? (on partchment!)

Mike (one who has a few, but not putting myself above anybody)

well mike I dont have a degree , I started out in he trades , once upon a time , long long ago when a respectable living could be made at the entry level , now people entering the trades are working for imagrants wages . luckily I learned enough various skills , over about 35 years I can keep busy , usualy even in times of recession . I own the business , sounds good right ? I work 6 -7 days a week to make up for slow times or missed days that just occur, most of the time I am bidding against team mexico . most of the joints in my body ache .insurance is very costly . blue collar workers are taking a hit in this country big time , 35 years in the business and I would have trouble getting a job working for someone else that payed the same or more than I started at way back in the 1970's something's worng with this picture ! the rade unions are the exception , if you can tolerate the trade union mentality that is ! we dont want to talk politics , right now we are all getting along here ! Jody

Not to start a polemic but… The fellow states he doesn't care about business, and yet receives the advice to get a business degree… Amazing.

Notwithstanding that a business degree has absolutely no future in the decades to come.

Nor would it serve any given purpose for an artisan luthier… One is not going to sell handmade guitars to Wall-Mart or Guitar Center, nor devise grand strategies of marketing. It's mostly a word-of-mouth endeavour, and as long as one is able to keep the books, stay afloat and plan ahead all should be well.

I'm also thinking about the cost of higher education in this country (I assume you're in the US, yes?), and unless one wants to enter indentured servitude and spend the first two decades of any professional life reimbursing debts contracted during college, I really do not see the point.
If the money is available via family it would be better spent getting a good apprenticeship, buying a minimal set of tools, and property. Or saved…

Obviously before jumping the boat a few guitars should be built, and see where that leads. It may not be as romantic as it sounds. The road is long and treacherous and plenty get burned out. It requires stamina, the propensity of working long hours for peanuts, the willingness to accept that mistakes (and s…t) happen, all the time, and patience. All qualities that are in short supply with younger generations…

As others have pointed out there's no money in guitar-building, so be prepared to struggle and if successful, to live rather modestly. Repairs are where the money is, and even that is a difficult business to start, and not one where a fellow gets rich.

But I don't think anybody should discourage you, there's nothing worse than having regrets and one should follow his heart, or at least give it a shot. The world is full of people working meaningless jobs they hate.

I'd be 19 in the 21st century I'd try to get serious farming and gardening skills, with some basic biology and engineering thrown in. Learn carpentry, how to fix engines (or anything you can throw your mind at), get to know your neighbours. Learn fine woodworking, there's always a bit of work for carpenters and cabinet-makers and it's not too far from lutherie, the basic set of tools is the same.

But the main advice is practice, build guitars and then see where it leads.

As for the "service economy" I suspect the next months/years/decades will prove that to have been a transient era of irrational, if not suicidal, disconnect with reality.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I am in my late 50s, but a lot of you guys sound like the "old fogey" relatives that told me I should be a scientist or a businessman because I was good at math when I was 12 years old. It was decades before anybody ever told me that it was OK for a smart kid to hate school, or that I did not have to have degrees. Dropping out of school after a year and a half of college was one of the best things I ever did. (Danger! Irresponsible role model!) My father spent the last 60 years of his life as a self-employed cabinetmaker, never went to college. My brother now owns the shop, also never went to college. We grew up learning to build and repair stuff ourselves. I had dreams and I was determined to follow them. Some were dead-ends, but they all led me eventually to a better place. I was an idealistic vagabond with a carpentry skill set that allowed me to roam around in search of romance, adventure and learning. I started building musical instruments with my father when I was 25, but foolishly gave that up to follow another dream that seemed more important at the time.

So my young friend, look at your dreams and create a structure that allows you to follow them. You will need some set of skills to fall back on, but those skills don't have to be based on a college degree. Rick Turner has emphasized the value of learning repair skills and general woodworking as a building block for luthier work, and I agree. Howard is right, in my opinion, the one great advantage of youth is the opportunity to wander off the beaten track and still recover from bad choices. You will not get everything right the first time (or the second), but don't be afraid to take risks.

I totally agree with Laurent.

Brook

You get to work with Rob Girdis?!
Holy cow...there's your door in. And a fine door it is!
(As an aside, if I could afford to commission a guitar to be built for me, Rob would be my first consideration. He is an excellent craftsman as well as artist/designer. Everything he does inspires me. )
If I were you, I'd finish the degree, and that alone will make you more marketable as a future employee to some established shop. (Should you need to go that route.)
In the meantime, do as Laurent wisely states: build some guitars.
And while you're doing that, soak up as much as you can from Rob!

You really are in an enviable place, and probably don't recognize it.
Best of luck to you,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

There are even a few colleges that offer luthier classes that you culd use to fill in electives.

I agree with Steve K and forgot in 1st post you had ability to work with Rob.
Make that your door to learning while going to school.
If Rob is like my old boss Bill (and bet he is), and bet he is if letting you go there now, you are at a school.

These guys are great about giving you the chance, but that also can take time ( a word for money) from their shop and production (another word for money) to do this. They are kind, but this is how they make their living and care for their familys and that isn't easy. If you can be of value in time, doing different things that helps them, the more they will be willing to pour out. It has to be in time a 2 way street for them and you. I have found in my limited time, the good builders are more thoughtful than some of the post may at time indicate. They want to give to others and teach this craft, but also doing so need some return out of it. This may seem free to the one getting the benefit of the experience, but it can be expensive to the builder/shop. You have a great chance to learn from one of the best and one making it. Make it count

I think if have this chance and talk to Rob, your better off learning his way. I really encourage you to talk to Rob and see if can get in and learn while going to school. Sometimes you can get to much information from to many sources and get fouled up. Not saying that would be your case, but seen it in this business as I know this from my own exerience and also in other businesses which I ran and operated.

If get to work for and with Rob, learn his way and do it his way. Probably like I was told, it is one pretty good way. You can still take in other things and then do what is best for you as you go. But the builder who is really good and is successful in this business may want you to learn and do it the way they do. That would be worth several schools.

Here is my 2 cents...
Not to put anyone down... but asking a question like this on a public forum is not always the best option. 30 people and 30 different answers (and counting). This should really be a family discussion and a question you should think on alone as well. The topic of how much can be made may be of use to you - but money, or lack thereof, is not everything. I was making $10 an hour when I got married and bought my first house (while my wife was in school getting her Master's degree) and even though we had a tight budget and little spending money I probably have never been happier than at that time of our lives. As for college... I ended up with two student loans and no degree. I think I am the only one I know who dropped out twice. It just wasn't for me.

Rob Girdis is an excellent guy from the short time I spent at his shop during the West Coast OLF gathering - if I were up north further I would probably try to get as much time in as possible under the wing of someone just like that. You may also want to check out http://www.seattleluthiers.org/ - they meet monthly and though I haven't attended yet looks like a great resource and a fun time hanging out with like-interest people.

So in short - You have to be the one that is OK with whatever decision you make. Good luck! If you are ever in the Tacoma area let me know.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

I must confess, I haven't read all the replies, but it seems to me the majority of them say, "get the degree". I am half and half on that one. Here is my suggestion - there is one technical college, Red Wing, in Minnesota which offers a degree in musical instrument repair (and construction). I don't know anything about it, except for what I see online. With a two year degree - many of those credits could transfer to a 4 year school - particularly one with an industrial technology program, or technology education such as University of Wisconsin - Stout. With that degree combination, you might find yourself very qualified to enter the guitar or instrument making industry. http://it.southeastmn.edu/programs/Musi ... ogramID=10

To simply get a business degree may lead you to a career in a field that is not your particular interest - but it will pay the bills. With a degree specialization, you might find the best of both worlds.

From an old shop teacher......

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Ken Bremer
Madison, Wisconsin
http://www.bremerguitar.blogspot.com

Not to sound polemic? Now thats pulling one of my favorite oratorial tricks. Like, "part of me wants to say that the advice you are giving is idiotic, but I wil refrain".

I have worked with TOO many people who have gone off to take "the other road". Yes, Tiger Woods proves you CAN make it if ya want to. But most (and I mean most) have NO idea what that means. And when we (some of us) point that out, we sound like dream busters. All I am saying is, find a career path that will allow you to follow your dream path. That way you can survive while chasing your dream. Just don't go and get stupid and get way into hock trying to live "the good life" before you achieve your dream path. Now THAT is the true dream buster. Period.

The world is all too willing to pay you for talent. Use it. Then, while the rest are watching the idiot tube at night, sneak up on them with your dream. If your tube is smaller then theirs, you will almost surely win.

Mike

I say flip a coin.

And ask yourself how you feel about the response.

Having studied alot I think its important to FEEL what you are doing. Otherwise you grow to resent it.

Now all this said, I think its important to have sound business knowledge if you want to make it in the biz. In order to run a business you need need need a sound business plan and foundation.

As well tho....I don't think one needs education to be an artist.

I can say at the young age I am now, I have travelled many roads. And they have led to various levels of podium.

I say travel the journey that feels RIGHT to you.

I truly dop't beleieve that there is such thing as a lifes work. And we go thru so many stages.

At 19, you have time, moxy and hopefully hardwork on your side.

You can do anything you want to, at ANY age.

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Colleen, wife to Mark Kett and longterm lurker to the OLF
http://www.pearlinlays.com