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I'm working on this guitar for a friend. Among other things that need attention, the pickguard has shrunk, distorting the area into a concave shape, causing or contributing to some cracking/splitting in the top, and causing it to begin peeling up slightly in a couple places around the edges. First, let me see if I can upload some pictures:

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

That photo gives you an idea of how the whole pickguard area has become somewhat distorted into a concave shape, due to the shrinking "skin" of the PG on the spruce. You would think, from looking at that, that the PG is peeling up almost all the way around its edge, but, actually, it's not. It's still securely stuck down except for a couple places.

Here are a couple more:

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

And:

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

It has shrunk. It also appears to have had some light heat applied to it in an attempt to secure it back down in places. I suspect this caused some of the shrinkage and the curl up at the front of the pick guard. If your friend wants a pick guatd to lie flat everywhere then you will have to reproduce it. Splint fix the crack and replace the pick guard IMO

Those last two photos show the cracks that run along the side of the PG. The major crack, as you'll see in the coming photos, continues under the bridge and all the way down the top to the butt end of the body. Therefore, I doubt that crack was caused entirely by the pickguard shrinkage. Anyway, if you look closely at the closeup of the PG edge and rosette, you'll see that the rosette rings are pulling apart a little, so, clearly, the pickguard shrinkage is working its evil on the guitar top.

Here are three more, showing the double crack between the PG and the bridge, then how the more major crack runs right under the bridge and all the way down. The last of these also shows how there is a second crack running parallel to the first, from the bridge to the butt end:

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yep you are going to have to remove the pick guard to fix the cracks anyway you look at it. So make a new one. Also I noticed on the last picture there appears to be two cracks equal distances symmetrical and parallel to the centerline of the body to the rear of the bridge. Have you checked in side for brace separation yet?

Those last three photos showed up in reverse order from what I expected, but you get the idea. I'll post one more, showing a close up of the one spot where the pickguard is significantly peeling up:

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I have a few of these in right now, and took some photos of one. Unfortunately I always seem to forget about the camera about half way through the project.

I'll try to post later tonight, but there are some very particular tricks that can really make a difference in repairs like this (of which I think I did take a few pics). It will be this evening, but I'll try to post more on it later.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks for your quick replies, Michael. Yes, there are two long cracks there. I've inspected inside, and there are no loose braces. I will certainly consider your recommendations - thanks again - but, for the moment, I'd like to continue to address my questions to the general repair populace out there...

So, what would you do?

Initially, I suggested to my friend that we might just as well leave the cracks alone, since there are no loose braces, no odd noises or anything, the guitar is holding up well structurally, and it sounds great. Now, however, I'm having second thoughts about that, mostly because the one crack (actually two cracks at that point) goes under the edge of the pickguard, and it seems wise to address the pickguard issue, rather than let that go and risk more damage from its continued shrinkage. In any case, I'm still open to suggestions as to whether to do little or nothing with the cracks or to repair them. I'm pretty sure I have a handle on HOW I would go about repairing the cracks (although I may have a question or two about the finer points of that), the question is more about whether to just leave them be.

As for the pickguard, if I'm not mistaken this is the kind that was stuck on before finishing the guitar, with nitro sprayed right over it. I'm not sure how one would tell that from looking (it hasn't shrunk so much that you can see bare wood around its edges), but that's my understanding of how things were done with Guilds of that era. Frank Ford goes into great detail on how he deals with pickguards like this (but doesn't describe a case where the top is cracked under the edge of the guard, like this one). He basically lifts them up off the top, to relieve the pull on the top caused by the shrinkage, and then glues them back down with heavy clamping and thick, flat cauls to flatten everything out. He does not recommend replacing the pickguard. If the pickguard HAD to be replaced, like if it got lost or something, then, says Frank, I'd have to put finish on the top where the pickguard was, in order to level that area with the surrounding area, before putting on a new pickguard. That does seem like a lot of additional work, especially since the top will be somewhat concave in the pickguard area (I assume it will stay pretty much in that distorted shape even after the pickguard is removed), which seems like it would make it somewhat difficult to level the newly applied finish with the surrounding area - I won't have a flat, level area to be working on to begin with. Also, a new pickguard would make the guitar less original; how much of an issue that is on a 1969 Guild is debatable, I suppose.

If those of you with expertise would be willing to make some recommendations about the pickguard, the cracks, or both, I'd be most grateful.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

David, thanks for your reply (I was hoping you'd be willing to help!). I look forward to what you have to share.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Two other questions/comments I have about Frank's recommended method (as shown on Frets.com at http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Tec ... uard1.html):

(With all due respect to Frank, who I do indeed respect immensely...)

First, as I already alluded to, I would think that the top has become more or less permanently distorted into this slightly concave shape in the pickguard area. Therefore, I would imagine that even with the regluing of the PG with heavy clamping and thick, flat cauls as Frank describes, the area will go back to a somewhat concave shape immediately after the clamps and cauls are removed. Am I right? Not that this would necessarily be such a bad thing, really, but...

Second, I have misgivings about regluing a celluloid pickguard back on there, and having it continue to shrink over the years, putting more stress on the top. Maybe, I'm thinking, it is better to get the dang thing off of there and replace it with the better materials in use now.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I just repaired a 1961 Gibson with some of the same problems. You are correct that the pick guard is glued on before finish. I removed it with a thin plastic putty knife and a blow drier. after finishing the raw wood with shelac and reapplied it with thin double sided tape as suggested by Dan Erlewine. I sealed the cracks with hot hide glue and re-glued a broken x brace with the same. I followed the suggestions from the forum and the repair turned out well and the guitar sounded fine. This was my first "major repair."

Thanks for your reply, Steve. That's an interesting approach you used, and I will consider it. Quite different from Frank Ford's recommended method, and different as well from what Michael is suggesting here. If there's any group of folks who are going to find a variety of ways to skin the cat, it's luthiers. Poor cat.

Using the double-sided tape, did you have to clamp the pickguard down, or did you just press it down with your hands, and did it just stick down and stay down by the strength of the tape, what with its previously curled up edges and all?

Had the top been distorted into a concave shape under the pickguard? If so, did it retain that shape after you removed the pickguard, or did it more or less flatten out on its own once relieved of the tension from the shrunken pickguard? Did it look pretty flat once the repair was completed?

Can you tell me exactly what specific tape you used?

Did you communicate directly with Dan about this, or were you referring to one of his books/articles/DVDs? If the latter, what was the specific source, so I can look it up?

Thanks again!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Okay, here's my idea of a correct repair for the shrinking pickguard. They are glued to the wood - Martin, Gibson, Guild, etc., and finished over. They shrink, usually taking the wood with them. You can reglue them to the wood, but in my opinion this is something of a ticking time bomb, as the problem will repeat. It may take 20 or 30 years, so I don't consider it a "bad" repair method, but it's not my preference. I remove the guard, flatten the wood and repair the cracks, finish the wood, and apply a new (or old if it's not too cupped) guard with 3m467 tape.

Here's a Martin I did recently. This one was spared a lot of cracks because the glue thankfully gave way and allowed the guard to pull loose instead.



I pull them loose cold. Knives, spatulas, whatever fits, keeping grain runout in mind of course.



Then comes the flattening of the top. For this I pull out my trusty Makita heat gun. It has a wonderful infinite heat adjustment, rather than simply a low and high setting. For this job I dial it in about to the temperature of a hair drier, probably in the 55c-60c range. The scoop attachment allows me to direct the heat toward the top.



I wet the top, liberally, in the pickguard area. A wet paper towel or even drops directly on the wood and spread with your finger until the wood is thoroughly moistened.



I only wet up to about 1/4"-3/8" from the edge of the finish. Wetting up to the finish can swell too much and cause some rippling in the finish around the pickguard.



Then I go in with the heat gun. My goal is to swell the compressed wood, specifically on the face more than the interior. By wetting the outside and forcing warm air against the inside you will heat the moisture and help swell the wood on top, while keeping the inside relatively dry in comparison to the outside. The outside will swell faster than the inside, and the results are not unlike the effect on a bi-metal thermostat ribbon.



It takes time. Maybe 5-10 minutes before the first soaking starts to dry out. After that I continue to re-wet the surface as needed, and the later wettings will dry much faster. It takes time - you may not see any movement for the first 15-20 minutes of doing this. I probably spent about an hour or more flattening this one out.

Here's before - not too bad as far as pickguard cupping goes.



Here's after - not perfectly flat, but plenty good enough.



Looks like I hit my limit with attachments - I'll continue below.

.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Now here's the best part. The infamous "b-string crack" before -



And after -



After that it's time to glue up the cracks, including any loose braces or cleats if needed. Then I mask, finish, and reattach either a new pickguard, or if the old one is still flat enough I may clean the back and use 3m467 adhesive to put it back on over the finish. Now the pickguard may continue to shrink over time, but it will pull loose without tearing up the rest of the instrument in the process.



And this is the last picture I took. Trust me though, it turned out great in the end.

Now I'll have to look at the pics again, but with your Guild there I'm guessing the large upper section of the pickguard pulled up a big split right next to the fingerboard extension as well as toward the bridge. If it didn't, consider yourself lucky!

It may take a bit more time with that degree of damage, but this heat and moisture technique really is a magical top-saver. It's amazing how much you can coax a top back in to shape with this trick. I have to give credit to Kjell Croce for showing me this one when I was up at Elderly's, which he learned working at a shop in Maine.

It's certainly not a quick, easy, or cheap job, but it's well worth it in my opinion.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I found the info in "Guitar Player Repair Guide" No clamping was required. One other thing - I left this instrument in my humidity controlled shop for two weeks (45% humidity) With heat I was able to ease the pick guard off without damaging the top. Dan's book described this guitars problem perfectly. The section of X brace under the pick guard was loose and broken at the lap joint. The top was also pulled up from the traverse brace beside the fingerboard extension.

Steve Brown

David, thank you! I knew I'd get some great stuff out of you if you were willing. Much, much appreciated. I do have several questions, but they will have to wait till tomorrow, because the day starts early with my two little girls (not to mention the nighttime wake-ups), so I must be off to bed.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks, Steve. Now, goodnight! (Where's the sleepy emoticon?)

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Good morning! I'm back, up before my girls with a bit of time to write...

So, David, at the risk of being a pain in the butt, I'll grill you with a few questions. Once again, I hugely appreciate your help. I'm not really trying to be a pain, just trying to rigorously examine all the issues involved here.

First, to look at the benefits of flattening the area with your wet-and-warm-the-wood method... One benefit is that it helps to close up the crack(s). Another benefit is that it makes the area look better just by making it flatter. Another benefit could be that it helps to re-glue any braces that may have come loose under that area, by creating a flatter gluing surface. Are there any other benefits that you see? A devil's advocate might question the necessity of doing it at all, and just leave the area somewhat concave, so I want to really consider all the benefits and weigh them against costs and any other potential drawbacks.

Second, I'm somewhat amazed that you can apply that much heat for such a long time inside the guitar and not have brace glue joints failing. Do you consider this a risk of this procedure? I realize you don't have the heat gun cranked up way high, but 60 deg C/140 deg F, for an hour... wow, that doesn't cause things to start flying apart in there, or over-dry the wood and cause other problems?

Third, the purpose of the heat, you say, is to "heat the moisture and help swell the wood on top, while keeping the inside relatively dry in comparison to the outside". What if you wet the outer surface but didn't apply the heat, or applied a gentler heat, like, for example, putting a little night light bulb in there for several hours or something? My inner devil's advocate needs convincing that the heat is necessary, since it would seem that the moisture alone would swell the fibers of the outer part of the spruce.

Fourth, what happens after the wood thoroughly dries out and reaches EMC? I would think that the fibers near the outer surface would have become permanently compressed by the years of force under the shrinking pickguard, and that they will pretty much return to that state and pull the board back into the concave shape. Again, I don't mean to doubt your expertise or experience, but my inner skeptic can't let that question go unasked.

Fifth, when you apply finish to the pickguard area, are you necessarily trying to level that area with the surrounding area? Or is the purpose of the finish simply to seal the wood and make it so you're not sticking the pickguard back onto the wood itself (so that it will more easily pull itself loose if it continues to shrink, rather than tearing apart the guitar)? Would you consider shellac a reasonable alternative to lacquer for this purpose?

Finally, do you have a standard charge for this job, or what might be a reasonable estimate of the charge for repairing a situation like this, including the cracks?

Thanks again!!!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hi Todd - All good questions.



First - I think you hit them all. Closing up the cracks, bring the top back down to braces it's pulled from, and of course aesthetics have to factor in as well. It's probably not necessary, but now that I know how to do this I just can't bring myself to lay finish on without first flattening it and possibly loose the chance forever.



Second - I should have been more clear on my temperatures. I take notes on heat settings for various tools in various circumstances, and for the heat gun I place a thermocouple at 1/2-3/4 from the opening until it stabilizes. This means that if I'm reading 60c as it leaves the gun, I'm probably going to find closer to 40-45c by the point it spreads and hits the top. And to be honest, I did not check my notes before posting so I may be off on temp, though I can tell you that if I hold my hand just past the scoop I can keep it there indefinitely without getting painful hot. The box does warm up during the process, but I'm always feeling around inside and out as a caution. If it started to feel uncomfortably warm I used to blow it out with an air hose or give it a short rest, but not so much anymore. There's no tension on it, and I doubt any joints are exceeding 40-45c (110f), so I stay cautious but have never been alarmed. You could also certainly do it in shorter sessions to keep the box from warming and drying out as a whole, though I've usually done it in one or two sittings.



Third - I've wondered this myself, but have never tried it this way. The idea I've had of this has involved keeping a difference, and trying to aggressively swell the exterior more rapidly than the interior. I've thought of trying without the gun, but since the method I was taught seemed to work so reliably I've never had a candidate I felt like trying this on. Like many methods who's originator isn't around to tell the story, I like to assume there are reasons that went in to shaping a technique in to what they have become. My concern would be that without an aggressive drying on the interior, the water may simply swell the in and outside at similar rates. It may work fine, but I just honestly don't know.



Fourth - It would certainly seem this way, but I haven't found it to be the case in practice. It does take a bit for the wood to start to swell, but once it's flattened out it seems to keep that way quite well. I did this to a 60's D-18 about 10-12 days ago and didn't get a chance to start laying finish down for over a week. They seem to remain fairly stable once they're done, even in the raw, and I've not noticed much change more than a smidge of cupping returning.



Fifth - I'm not necessarily concerned with bringing the surface flat in finishing, but I think it is nice to have it flush with the lacquer at least around the edges. This way if you're making a new pickguard you have the option of perhaps enlarging it even just 1/16" in spots where you may like to obscure a dirty crack. It's not necessary though, and I'm sure you could leave it low with no problem. I use shellac as a sealer/filler, but switch to lacquer for build coats. I do know people who use shellac for the whole job though and it works great.



Finally, I leave the range pretty broad on my price list at $200-$280, and I don't list the cracks as included. If there are one or two small cracks I will often include them in that price, but larger ones will be charged seperately. With the cracks and the size of the guard I would probably be quoting $320-$360, or 3_1/2 to 4 hours billable labor.

Now the big question to me is, what to do about the pickguard? I usually advocate cutting a replacement when they're really shrinking, but am honestly quite frustrated in not being able to find a good supply of old, thin, flattop style tortoise that looks decent. I've heard of folks heating, boiling, pressing old pickguards to flatten, but never tried it myself. Seems like the finish cracking when you flattened it out would be pretty bad, and I don't know how stable to expect it to be. So there's the part I have no answer for. I suppose if that one wasn't too warped I would just clean it up and stick it back down. I would really prefer to find a replacement material (preferably in a sustainable supply). If anyone could answer point me to a supply that is not too thick, of decent color and grain, and not computer-printed pixilated layers (man I hate that stuff), I would be very appreciative.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

This was the single most detailed repair thread that I have ever seen!!! Many thanks David you are greatly appreciated my friend!!!

Great tutorial David!

THIS NEEDS TO BE ARCHIVED!!!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

As usual David raises the bar with the depth of his answer. Great Job!!!
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

David, a million thanks for so thoroughly addressing all my questions! Extremely helpful!

At this point, I'm on the fence about trying to put the old pickguard back on or making a new one. I would also love to hear of anyone's experience with faux tortise pickguard material that you'd recommend. Or even black stuff, for that matter - I'm not sure my friend would care.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I'm still not certain about whether to repair the long cracks extending from the bridge to the butt end of this guitar, or just leave them alone. I'm going to start a new thread to address that question.

Thanks again, everyone.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/