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I'm just starting to brace my first acoustic but i don't have a go-bar deck or the money to make one. What is the best way to glue braces down solidly without the use of a go-bar deck? I've though of using just regular clamping but i'd imagine some issues would come out of that.

Look around the house I have used my book shelf and two tables one above the other.

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Build log

A couple of old reliable classical guitar methods:
1) Place a strip of partially flexible wood (thick lathe) on the opposite side of the top as the brace, and use that as a caul for clamping. The flexible caul will let you clamp a curved brace into place. I guess you would need some deep throated clamps. Looks clumsy to me, but a lot of old builders did this.
2) If you are using hot hide glue, lay the top down on the work bench, put the glue on the brace, and put the brace in the desired location, gently sliding the brace back and forth along its axis until it grabs, as the glue cools. You will not need a clamp.

However, I would improvise, such as suggested with a book shelf for a deck (maybe flimsier go-bars). Also, you can get a good enough joint by simply laying weights across the braces, such as bricks. Place a parellel object on the work area the same height as the brace a couple of inches away from the brace, so that the weight is verticle and does not tip over the brace. Very strong gluing pressure is NOT necessay.

Jonas buddy Stew-Mac has some clever ways to accomplish guitar building tasks believe it or not with minimal tools that they describe in their free-for-download kit instructions. You can find the download here: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Acoustic_Guitar_Kits/1/Dreadnought_Guitar_Kits/Instructions/I-5295.html#details

The go-bar deck has just never intrigued me enough to do it. Call me old- fashioned. All I use is deep throated wooden cam clamps I bought from Stew Mac. You will need at least six if you glue on leg of the x at a time...which isn't the best thing to do. In order to glue both x's it will take approximately 10 or 11, depending on how you arrange them, and 4 small spring clamps for each brace end but use cauls or you will dent the top.

I always use hide glue and never have a problem, however, I've done it enough to be fast at it. You don't have to clamp the tar out of them either. A good, plumb, accurately profiled brace will sit just fine all you need to do is clamp them firmly...no need to mash them down too hard.

All this said the money spent on the clamps won't be much different from buying a prefab radiused dish and making your own and the radiused dish has been a great tool for me. Either way you're gonna have a fun time doing it and in the end a feeling of satisfaction. Just keep listening to all these guys on here and it will be much easier. When in doubt, ASK! Wish I had this forum when I started in 1996. I was really "green" and had to learn from quite a few mistakes early on .

With all that behind me I still build mainly on an open workboard as in Cumpiano's book "Guitar Making Tradition and Technology". If you don't have it yet it would be a great source to have on hand. In the end do what serves you best. Don't get hung up on having to do things a certain way.

Best of luck and enjoy...

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"We might not be big but we sure are slow"

i've only built two. here's how i've done it.



http://yakmatter.com

I honestly can't think of a cheaper method than go bars, so if cost is an issue that's what I'd go for!
I spent about £25 on my 35 gobars and tips. All you need then is a couple of sheets of MDF or ply and some threaded rod - there's your deck!

I agree completely especially when you consider the cost of good clamps and how many you may need.

A go-bar deck need only be a surface with a ceiling and can be easily made from things laying around. As my buddy Jammy said the go-bars are very cheap and you can even rip off the curb markers that snow plow companies use to mark out the streets and driveways....

If all else fails just use a room with a low ceiling and invite a bunch of friends over to stand in one spot for a couple of hours with their hands flat on the ceiling......

Wouldn't you have to have a radiused dish behind the top or back is it is being braced to conform to the radius of the gluing edge of the braces? I know I don't have the know-how to make one and they cost around $70 or so I think.

Thanks.

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"We might not be big but we sure are slow"

Others are right, if you can buy the clamps, you can build the go bar system.

Use dowels you can get at any hobby place and know cheap at Lowes, Home Depot and other places. 3/4" ply is pretty cheap and get 4 1/2" all thread, they don't have to be more than 18" tall, some plastic pipe or metal tubes to put them in and done. You may well have much of the materials at home already. Use counter and anything that can be the top of deck. Just need place big enough to put the top and bottom on and secure the dowels. Lots of area's around house to do that.

It is probably best in my opinion to use the dishes. But you can make the radii in brances and put them on and the top and back will make it conform. I never have done this, but know some folks here do it that way.

If you don't have stuff and really want to use the go bars, dishes and other things you feel you need, want or don't have, then stop, wait, save money and start buying the stuff needed or feel you need and want to build and then do it. You are going to need a lot more for the build and the go bar thing is one of the cheapest things to buy and build. If first build, read and learn what your going to do and need and save and get the stuff. You don't need a bunch of real fancy tools, but you do need some tools and ability to make some jigs and fixtures. I of course have no idea of what you do or don't have or your ability in woodworking or whatever. You Don't Have To Be In A Hurry. Get things together you need and Don'ti have, it will go easier and be a lot more fun, whether you use all hand stuff or go with power.

I'm not "sure" here, but I think Rvsgtr is Steve Reeves (am I right? I saw you sign SR on one of your posts). If this is Steve, he's getting quite a following, particularly in the flatpicking world.

At any rate, beginner or veteran, welcome aboard! You've found (IMO) hands down, the best luthier forum on the planet, where both beginners and seasoned pros gain from the shared wealth of knowledge.

Re: the go-bar deck. Just try it. Trust me. Didn't I understand you in a previous post to say that you already used a radius dish? If not, buy or make one. Every part of my setup I built myself and, like several others here, I rip my go-bars out of whatever stock I have laying around. I built an overhead cabinet (which I needed anyway) over a peninsula workbench that I use to brace off of and allows me good access on three sides. The peninsula is deep enough to brace two tops/backs/whatever at the same time.

BTW, I also use only hide glue, which is really where this setup shines for its speed and ease of use. Not to say experience can't build a fast technique with clamps, but...well...just try it.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

OK, I guess from reading your last post, you don't have a radius dish. Again, they can be built pretty easily. However, $70 is not that bad for something you'll get that much use out of. Figure the cost by how many guitars you plan to build in the next 10 years or so and they suddenly get real cheap per build. I'm seriously thinking about getting a 28' or 30' radius dish for my tops (I use 25' now), and when I do I'll very likely buy one this time. A couple of suppliers here on this forum can get one to you real quick and their customer service can't be beat.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Two parallel surfaces (well supported shelf and a work bench top) and $3 worth of 3/16" wooden dowel rods is better than clamps. This can be arranged for less than $20 even if you don’t have the parallel surfaces already available as long as you have a work bench against a wall where you can attach a shelf. The first few guitars I built I used an edge support shim around the top or back that gave the appropriate rise for the brace radius but you will be much better off with a domed dish to support the plate. Even and constant pressure is important to insure a good glue joint.

Mattia used his desk at college, and go bar sticks.

I use 5/16" dowels of hardwood from Walmart, no tips.

Those were 48 cents back then, now about 68 cents each.

creating dishes is involved, but not too difficult except for the mess it creates, so I've heard.

My first three or so were done on radius rails glued to a piece of plywood, simulating the radius dish. don't recommend it except for backs.

The tops were done simply by radiusing the bracing and gluing it on flat. They worked fine but I believe that stresses the top in an unnecessary way.

Sure if one is building more than one, make or buy dishes for sure. Or, borrow some if just doing a few.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Here's a way to get a curved caul for the back. Haven't tried it, but it might work. Test on scrap!

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/contourtool.html

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Wow, this is why this is the best forum for luthiers!

Sorry for the confusion everyone, i'm am not using a radius dish because i'm building a flat (and back) acoustic, and i'm using hide glue. Since i'm 16 i don't have all the funds at my disposal but i've made do in the past, i've built a couple electrics before (i'll try to get some pics up) and this is my first acoustic. I think that you guys are right, it would be cheaper and more efficient to make a go-bar deck. I'll wait a couple more weeks so i can get the money for a deck, in the mean while i'll work on my electric.

Also, just clearing things up, for a go-bar deck it is just the dish, the bunch of rods and a weighted top? I haven't really looked into the weight part of it yet. One of you talented luthiers correct me if i'm wrong

I've got some threaded rods you can have if you want. You can PM me your address and I'll send them out. Then all you would need is the plywood for the top and bottom... really this can be found cheap. Maybe something in the garage you can find - or some local shop's scraps. The rods themselves can be all kinds of things as noted above... dowels, scrap strips of hardwood, fiberglass. I think the threaded rods I have are about 24" long but you can adjust the nuts to make it shorter if necessary.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Well that rules me out...... But that never stopped me before.

Jonas buddy here is a picture of a basic go-bar deck. Again they can be made differently just using an over hanging top or even the ceiling. The earliest go-bar decks were said to be ancient caves and they simply used sticks that were slightly longer than the height of the cave.

Also here is a link to Stew-mac who sells a hardware kit for the deck but you can find all of these parts elsewhere, usually at good old mom and pop hardware stores for much less money.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Clamps,_support_tools/1/Go-bar_Clamping_System/Pictures.html#details

Hey Westex that's me. Thanks for the kind words. Things have been really good and moved really fast the last few years. I'm currently building an endorsement guitar, hopefully assuming he likes it, that will be huge so I'll just keep workin' and prayin'...

Anyway, you may have me convinced to try it. Will small dowels work fine and do you use rubber caps on the ends to hold the work better? Thanks for the info. I can see where this place can really save some beginners alot of trouble...as well as some not so new builders .

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"We might not be big but we sure are slow"

That actually looks very doable. I don't think i'd have any trouble building that. I would think that the rods (i think i'll use dowels) need some sort of rubber cap? If so how should i procede with that? maybe some electrical tape around the ends of the rods would do it.

Not fully positive, here, but I do believe many of those who use dowels or fiberglass rods do use rubber end caps (or I imagine Plasti-dip would work well?). Flat bars such as I use, just ripped from whatever hardwood stock you have laying around, stay in place well by themselves. Jonas, I believe rather than trying electrical tape, I would go with the caps or Plasti-dip.

Steve, I think 1/4" rods are pretty common for this, but find the good hardwood dowels. I think the caps are more for holding the rods in place and prevent them from rolling out? With some reasonable careful placement of the rods pressing straight down into a radius dish, I don't have problem with the stock moving, once it's there, it's there. Particularly with the quick tack of hide glue.

Oh, by the way, pictures are a requirement around here. Look forward to seeing and hearing more about the endorsement guitar!

And to put pictures to my desciption, using an overhead shelf or cabinet works great to brace off of if you don't want to build a stand-alone deck such as Hesh shows. And, you can't have too much storage. No actual bracing is going on in this shot, but you get the idea of the easy access to the island or peninsula go-bar deck. Shop is still a work in progress....

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Jonas, where are you building your guitar? shop of some sort? kitchen, where.

Honestly if you are building a true flat top with a flat back you don't even need a go-bar deck (although it is probably one of the cheapest tools you'll ever have).

Do you have two flat pieces of plywood? or even a scrap of counter top? Search around, it's amazing what you can find for free these days.

Anyway, take the two flat pieces of plywood or counter top, put your top face down on one, place your braces, put the other piece of plywood on top of the braces and weight that down with some rocks or bricks over top of the braces. Find anything heavy and put it on top of the plywood.

As for a go-bar deck, do you have kitchen cabinets? I recall a picture of Lance's first guitar build, he used his counter top for the go-bar base and the upper cabinet for the top, than cut his go-bars to fit. Be creative and use what's around you, not necessarily what is commercially or commonly done.

My first go bar deck was two saw horses with two pieces of plywood as the base, this was in my 6' crawlspace. I screwed another piece of plywood to the underside of my floor joists. I than used scrap pieces of hardwood (again, scrounge around for these) and I cut them to 1/4" x 3/4" x what ever length I needed as the go-bars. didn't cost me anything.

Here's a picture of my current go-bar deck in action. I built it into my shop. Still use scrap hardwood (be creative) and I didn't pay anything for the wood.

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I found a good cheap source for go bar rods in the garden supply section of home depot (or wherever). For about $3 you can get a bundle of bamboo plant support rods that you can cut down to any size. If they break throw them out. Very easy to adjust. I also made my own deck out of scrap wood, consisting of two square leg sections that fit into notched plywood top and bottom, that is easy to store and set up. I also made a radius dish using a home made gauge to feather wedge edges of a round base to the right height, then nailed a piece of p-lam (one nail in the center) over the wedges and a bunch of epoxy. The results were suprisingly accurate. I hope that made sense.
You can get away with only having one radius dish for the top because your back braces are easy enough to just use clamps on.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.