Official Luthiers Forum!

who is the customer?

Okay....I'll bite. Customer for what?

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Jamie M

Like, Who's the Daddy?

Huhm!
NTC!
I LIKE it!
Much, much more difficult than "Name That Builder" or even, "Quien es Maaaas Macho"!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

The customer is the one who is always right.


Ray

Hit the wrong button...This was supposed to be a reply to Ric Hollander's thread on delivering his new build to a customer. Lotsa pix, but whose is the customer?

It's still a great question even if it was a mistake.

Here are a few preliminary observations about customers after doing this about 5 years. Are these way off base? I’m interested in the old timer’s comments.

1. The best advertising is word of mouth from respected players. You want working professionals playing your instruments.

2. Other than those at the top of the food chain, most professional musicians/guitarists are poor and have difficulty paying for a $3-5000+ instrument. Discounted prices are frequently necessary if you want exposure among working musicians.

3. The typical buyer in that price range is an upper or upper middle class professional that loves guitars, has some disposable income, but is a living room player and does not give your instruments much exposure. They are frequently looking at the guitar more as an art object or collectable.

4. There are a lot of wacky types out there that will call you multiple times and agonize over every detail of a commission only to back out when deposit time rolls around. A big waste of time.

5. Commission building has it’s pluses in that you get to meet some really cool people and establish relationships that are of great value. Some negatives are the occasional difficult type customer, requests for appointments that do not reflect your taste, and the fact that you are limited in doing new stuff or designs that you want to try as your shop is tied up dealing with your waiting list.

6. Getting hooked up with a well-established dealer that is supportive, highly respected, has a large Internet presence, and selling through them looks better and better all the time. You can build what you want, you benefit from their marketing experience, and get expert critiques of what you are doing based on real-world retail knowledge. You can still do selected commissions.



Comments pro or con are welcomed.


Terry
http://www.kennedyguitars.com

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hi Terry,

Good comments. I especially like to be hopeful about #6. Using someone else's marketing has benefits (and of course costs...)

Maybe this post wasn't so silly after all

Not at all. Terence nailed it on the head. I'm looking forward to further thoughts on this.

It seems from where I stand, the hobby and small business luthiers are more willing to sacrifice their own method and individual build identity to please the whim of the customer who wants something entirely bespoke.

The more successful and high profile luthiers stick to thier own unique bag of tricks, and the customer chooses THEM because they like the style, the tone and often the name. They have a formula that is popular with guitarists therefore there is no need to follow consumer orders to the whimsiest letter. (except for perhaps the odd signature instrument for a well -known musician who will endorse when commissions need to be boosted a little)

Luckily there is enough space in the world to cover two types of customer. If ever I was to go pro (highly unlikely) I know which camp I'd like to be in.

With the common practice of throwing guitars at pro players in exchange for the use of their name, their likeness and an endorsement, it's tough to sift through all of the advertising to know which endorsements are real or are an end of a reciprocal agreement between player and builder.

Without mentioning any names, I can share a funny(?) story about just this thing. I was spending some time with one of the most revered and respected players on the planet a few years back and he told me about how a builder literally pursued him for several years to land an endorsement from him for his guitars.

This particular builder would show up at concerts with a guitar to give to the artist to play for a time to see if he liked it. The player said that he had a tough time hooking up with one detail of the guitar or another like wood combination and its tone or neck shape and would send the guitar back with a genuine thanks and an explanation as to why he didn't keep it. Again, the builder would show up at a concert with a new guitar with a different wood set or neck profile and some more details that he could see that the player liked by looking at the guitars he was using from another builder that he had long standing relationship/friendship with and had been endorsing for more than a decade.

This went on for more than two dozen times before the player finally offered to play the guy's guitars and give him an endorsement and ad permission in return for them. He said that he gave in a agreed to endorse them to save the guy the time and expense of building them to win him over and traveling all over the country to get them to him at concerts. They are not his favorite guitars and he has made comment that they are good tour guitars since they are more disposable to him than his other more valuable guitars.

This kind of ridiculous pursuit should have been embarrassing to the builder, but an endorsement from an artist was more important than his dignity so he went after it at any cost. Fortunately, the builder has another job that actually provides his healthy income and his guitar building is something that he can do as a passionate side line. He throws guitars at artists on a regular basis and many give an endorsement in return while saying that they probably wold never have chosen his guitars for purchase, but were happy to take them for free.

These endorsements fall in the same category as many landed by the big builders as they throw stacks of guitars at artists or design artist signature models in return for an endorsement and to capitalize on their name and fame.


I'd rather have the endorsement of a few amateur players who have actually laid out their hard earned dollars for a guitar simply because it was the one that they chose over all others than a famous artist who receives dozens every year for free.

A lot of the couch or living room players that i've had come visit my shop to order or pick up their commissioned guitars are as good as or better players than many of the pros that I hear on CDs every day. In the works here is a project called "The Peer Project" on which fifteen or so tunes played by these guys will feature my guitars of different woods and styles recorded through a pair of excellent mics and directly into a ProTools rig.

I used to chase the artists and their endorsements and have enjoyed good relationships with some over the years, but found that the endorsement of regular guys and lesser known pros served me better. I've enjoyed a backlog of about 150 guitars or about four years since the mid 90's and have never placed an ad in any of the policy driven publications whose editorial consideration is directly determined by ad revenue. Place ads and receive reviews, articles and mention. If you don't buy ad space, don't ever expect to receive a mention of your instruments.

It's the nature of this and any other industry and you have to choose the path of promotion that you'll take carefully.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

The "old" pity endorsement! I could see the ad in AGP now! "I don't really like the guitar I'm just trying to keep this guy from going broke by his hassling me"!

Sounds to me that he really admired this player himself rather than pursuing him for any business advantage. This is common in many kinds of buiness, decisions based on some personal like or dislike rather than reality of business environs.

I can think of a couple of guitarists that I admire and would likely give a guitar even without any endorsement, simply because of their awesome ability. Plain stupid as a buiness consideration, but human.

Another thing is, a professional, who doesn't really like your instrument, can be trusted to tell you the truth, simple because he isn't working you for a free instrument. Few have the humility to seek somebody's opinion that doesn't like your work or even you personally.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Billy T,

The ads that were placed containing the endorsements with both comments and photos of the artist....and there were a good number of them.....had generic comments made by the player about the guitars. It's not that he absolutely hated the guitars, but it did take the builder 25 or so times to arrive at a design and appointment package that suited him to a point where he could use it live.

You'd have to know this player to understand that he really was trying to do the guy the dual faceted favor of saving him time and lots of money as well as helping his business by endorsing a product from him. I thought it was a fine show of his integrity that he kept sending the guitars back with a clear explanation of what made it something other than what he could or would use....and wouldn't offer an endorsement until it was. He also explained that he had a long standing relationship with another builder whose guitars he'd endorsed for years, but the guy persisted in spite of it.

The artist played a good part in the growth of the builder and in developing his guitars over those few years and the subsequent ads certainly played a part in the builder's success and visibility. He told me once that his orders went by more than five times in the very first year of his connection with this player.

The power of endorsement is a quirky thing and boggles my mind sometimes. I really prefer word of mouth among players who buy them because they really want them than from a high visibility player who'd never heard of me or considered one of my guitars before I chased him down at a concert venue or until he played a guitar owned by another artist that I chased down before.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

you guys sure have open minds

I was going to comment before I saw that this would make me an old-timer.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Oh Yeah! I caught on to that right away. This artist(guitarist) was doing this guy a big favor, all the way around. Integrity as well as human concern! It's just that this crosses over an imaginary line between "honesty" and compassion. A troubling situation to be in for the artist(guitar) as well as the luthier(artist).



This is wise! Most of us fall in that category I'm sure! We have to admit it, notwithstanding self-effacement, most guitars built on this forum are better than guitars one gets at the guitar store. It's a better deal for the customer and luthier.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Jonas,

Thanks

Not sure that I got you.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars