Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Todd,

You've probably looked at this, but the string spacing at the nut could make quite a difference to a player having problems with voicings, also, and I don't expect you have control of this, but the width of the neck would be an important factor in playability for someone with dexterity problems.

I had my thumb joint replaced with an artificial one 1 1/2 years ago (severe arthritis) and now find that I prefer playing a wider neck 1 7/8" or more at the nut.

Just a couple of things that came to mind, I hope this helps you out.

Cal

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Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

Most of us do not hold our hand properly for barre chords. We hold our hand in a position that causes the index finger to curve, which means that not all points contact well. If we do anything to weaken the finger, then we then cannot barre. You might suggest to your friend that he experiment with moving his thumb down a little on the neck and holding his wrist out a little, so that he can lower the index finger in a flatter bar. This is standard classical technique. If that does not help with a little practice, then he can also learn to roll the index finger a little onto the side, which also straightens the finger and stiffens it, becasue the joints do not bend sideways.

A couple of things I've noticed over the years... A wider neck doesn't alway mean harder to play, I find that even with my short stubby fingers I prefer a wider neck (min 1-3/4), with some extra meat behind the fretboard. As Cal mentioned nut spacing can make a huge difference to for chord formation (especially 1st position chords). More to the point with your client, a tighter fretboard radius should help the person fret barre chords especially if care is taken to follow the fretboard's contour when making your nut and saddle. Try going to a 12" radius (if it's not already). There's a huge difference playing a neck with a 12" radius than say a 16" radius.

Cheers,
Chad

I've been living with a weak left hand since 1979 (spinal injury) so I have some experience on the matter.

First, getting in the habit of holding the guitar classical style makes a huge difference!

Second, increasing (reducing?) the radius of the fingerboard to match the natural curve of the index finger. I found that, for me, that worked out to about 6" radius at the nut. Far more (less?) than convention would suggest. However you word it, the radius is tighter!

Third, learn fingering shortcuts. IE. when playing music that has barre chords, I will play some of the other chords so that my fingers don't have to move as much. I will play an E chord like an un-barred G, then slide up and I'm ready to go, just drop my index finger down. Same thing with am and bm.

I can't, even if my life depended upon it, play a barred major chord like C or D with one finger playing the three strings! I can play the minor, but not the major.

Fourth, lower tension in the strings. This is one reason why I mostly play nylon string guitars now. There is a lot of room in this factor as a longer scale can actually allow you to set the string height lower. Sometimes its the apparent tension, its very subjective.

Finally, a too thin neck can actually make it harder to play. A weak hand can squeeze more when there is something to grab onto. Try this out. Use the thumb and index finger on your left hand. Now squeeze just one finger of your right hand, note the pressure. Try this with two or three fingers tall, note the pressure. It changes how the hand/finger muscles are able to squeeze.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
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Other than spacing I really can't give a lot of advice on setup above normal careful work, but if the hand is weak, that's where the consideration should be given first. I wanted to say that when I have hard times with transistion or specific technique I've been using a process that has worked quite well not just in speed but accuracy.

It's kind of an isometric exercize. When I come across an offending lack of ability I place my fingers in position as perfectly as I can, and press down as hard as I can, without really hurting myself. I release and repeat no more than about three times at first. Building as strength enables. Usually in about three days the improvement is remarkable.

Same for chord or solo transistion, pressing hard with as good as positon as I can get even very slowly if needed. Also working hand angle back and forth slightly in this position both up and down the neck and left and right helps.

It is important to emphasize good position! The brain remembers repeated mistakes. Find them out a soon as possible and correct them immediately. Even if you have to take your right(or pick hand)over and place and hold fingers in right position during this exercize do it!

Also notice thumb position, not just as these classical guys do with the thumb in the higher string side of the neck which I think is a ton of huey! But all over, completely wrapping the neck as much as possible and holding as little of the neck as possible. This give the hand depth of strength not just in one position but limberness in placement, in time.

These things as exercize, not in playing, generally. I believe hand and arm strength is greatly under-considered in playing guitar. Your friend, as many others, may even improve with taking up lifting weights. Of course, of course especially not overdoing the weak area. Slowly working up. Patience goes a long way here!

Considering this guy's surgery he may have to take it easier and longer but the strength can build quite fast with diligence.

With my illness, amongst other things, I have a moderate problem with motor control and I've learned this works for that too! The brain works like a muscle too in many ways.

I wanted to add that we've all heard that pressing down very lightly on the fretboard is proper technique, and this is true to some end, but perspective has to be acquired in exercize as opposed to playing.

For a person that is professional he perhaps plays 8 to 10 hours a day! That's true! His hand strength is much greater than most. A professional "just placing" his fingers on the fretboard is much like a mere mortal giving the kung-foo death grip!! Don't buy the crap that one only places his fingers lightly all the time! Get hand strength up and accuracy and speed will follow!

I have recently started to think guitar playing is more athletic than previously. I've discovered that diet also play a very significant part! Lot of, yes, yes, the dreaded, varied fresh fruits and vegetables help keep joints limber and pain down! Muscles develop fast when they're given something to work with!

Hope this helps!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

IME players with a weak left hand prefer a slender/thin neck. Width seems to be a matter of playing style, a narrow nut/saddle string spacing is easier to play strumming chords and/or leads, wider allows open strings to ring and polyphonic playing. In any case to ease bare chords in the first frets a small FB radius (between 7.5 and 9 at the nut) helps a lot.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

There are a lot of good ideas here and all of them can be checked out to see how they might be adapted to the case at hand. Every disability or limitation is unique and requires finding a likewise unique way around it or at least ways to accomodate. Finding a comfort zone that allows for the most playability is very much an individual thing. I would recommend that your friend try out as many guitars as he can, and try to get an idea for what works best for him. Once he has a feeling for what works, you can tweak that to the nth degree.

The one thing that applies across the board is the exercise (push you limits) and diet, and I would include massage and a 'can do' attitude.

My 2 cents - I've had a spinal chord injury that left the tips of my fingers & hand numb. I found that a wide neck, light guage strings and taller & narrower frets helped. (The suggestion by Douglas about the radius makes a lot of since.) Also - tuning down from the standard E to D or playing in open tunings can help. By playing everyday, I've build up enough strength to go back up to the standard E tuning and have recently bumped up to medium gauge.

john g

Outstanding John! Feels great don't it!
Thanks for the massage tip! I'll have to try it!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Good luck with the project, Todd.

In case anyone is concerned about how such a tight radius as 6" (at the nut) looks on the fingerboard, it really isn't that bad. The section of arc is quite small so the overall look is pretty ordinary.

Also, I find that these design issues just make a more playable guitar all round, not just for we dextrously challenged! And practice and exercise really do make a difference, if I don't play for longer times, my hand gets really stiff and weak for guitar playing.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

From a player's perspective, here's my thoughts. I have weakness in the hands due to cubital tunnel syndrome and possibly a little arthritis. My setup is *extremely* low-- clearance over the first fret from high E to low E is 0.009, 0.011, 0.013, 0.015, 0.017, and 0.019. My action at the 12th fret is like that of an electric-- 3/64" high E and 4/64 low E. The neck is almost dead flat with very little relief. I have a very light touch on the strings and prefer to let the microphone do the work for me. That said, this setup requires an almost perfect fret job and extra time setting the radius of the top of the saddle-- *NOT* removing material from the bottom of it to achieve. I also use stainless steel or nickel wound strings as they have a lower overall tension when tuned to pitch than most bronze strings. I don't necessarily believe that short vs long scale has a *great* effect, although the distances are certainly shorter with the short scale. Neck thickness from front to back makes a HUGE difference to me, and I prefer a super thin neck that does not get much thicker as you go up the neck towards the heel. Paradoxically, a wider nut may allow the fingers to relax more as opposed to curling up so much to fit a smaller nut width. As far as the frets, it's counterintuitive, I know, but I think lower, smaller, flatter frets will make playing easier as long as you don't do a lot of bending notes as on an electric. Lots of jazz players use frets almost "stoned into the board," so to speak, for that reason. My best advice-- get the action as low as possible and after the frets are installed, immediately do a fret leveling and dressing. Even brand new frets can have some high spots that require the action to be set higher to overcome. When I do a setup on one of my guitars, it is quite literally an all day event. Most luthiers may take a few hours at most... one I talked to at a now defunct local music store even bragged about being able to make a nut in less than an hour from start to finish. The nuts I make take about three hours and are dialed in to the thousandth of an inch. And-- this is critical-- when dealing with actions this low, be sure to set the action at the 12th fret by adjusting the TOP of the saddle *FIRST* before attempting to get the nut slots to final depth. Clearances this low ARE susceptible to a small amount of material removed at the saddle. On one of my instruments I have a "summer" saddle and a "winter" saddle. On another instrument I have 4 saddles I interchange depending upon how high action I can tolerate-- nut slot depths were set with the lowest saddle, incidentally.

I don't know if this helps as I am not really a luthier, but I do have very specific measurements I take great pains to achieve because it's the only way I can play comfortably. If I can help at all, please let me know!

John

for what it's worth, here's another little thing that's helped me out over on the other side - on the right hand ..

a corked pick. My right hand can get a little numb too and I've found that having a little extra something to hang on too helps to keep from it falling south. I used to be able to find these at music stores but rarely can these days, but then again I only go into one every year or two. So I mostly fashion them for myself.



Pick #1 (from left to right) is the store bought type I prefer, but hardly ever see anymore.
#2 the cork is from a hardware store - sold as cabinet door stops w/ adhesive back.
#3 One I found a while back in a music store - but I still like the larger ones. You can pry the cork off glue
it to a manly pick and throw the little sissy pick away.
#4 a cork from a wine bottle w/ a hole drilled, sliced & glued to the pick. The good thing about this method
is you have to drink the bottle of wine so it won't be left uncorked and you generally don't care if the pick falls out of your hand anyway.

john g

You guys use picks?!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Absolutely! I do the cork thing sometimes too and my cork comes from Kmart's bowling section. Brunswick sells it to line the holes of bowling balls... self adhesive and not too oversize... cuts well!

I maybe should have added that I gave up on picks years ago. I hated it when they would go flying, or pin around in my fingers. I guess that the cork would address that, it never occurred to me to do cork! So I started strumming Spanish style, just using my fingernails.
fingers down and thumb up. Its natural to me now, and I prefer the change of timbre. I can also strum faster by moving my fingers than moving my whole arm.

I can shift to fingerpicking in the blink of an eye, and go back to strumming.

I never did get the hang of flatpicking.

Todd, there is also the issue of top compliance. The overall stiffness of the top affects the, real or apparent, feel of the string tension. There as been quite a bit of discussion on this topic on the classical guitar forum. Yet another thing to add to the pot!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I use a flatpick but rough it up rall good with 40/80 grit. Gives a good surface to stop twisting dead! Why are picks smooth? Huhm?

I also, though, use the fingrnails just by changing angle of attack, it does change the tone of the attack accentuating the string sound by somewhat muting the attack. Both thumb and fingers like mentioned.

Gordon Giltrap as well as others use fingers and pick at the same time. It doesn't have to be exclusive I guess.

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)