Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all. While waiting for John Watkins shop to come online, Ive been workin on some shapes for my coming guitar. but as I am new to this, I would be most honored to get your honest and serious input on these shapes. I was thinking of tranfering one of these shapes on to the Michael Payne:s SJ plan, use his plan but my own shape. !!. Also , I just thought of this, but is this an ok thing to do ? hope its like luthier-legal so to speak. . If not I will of cause drop the idea.

Please let me know what shape you all would vote for . Nr.1 or Nr.2 . Also, what would you change in these shapes if you could ? and the reason for the change. As I understand it, the upper bout is not to important in an tonal point of view, so therefor I made it slope a lot, I like that look. But how will it affect the tone ?

the presets are:
Upper bout : 11.75"
Lower bout : 16" - 16.25
Length : 20"
Top to Soundhole center : 5.88"
Waist: 9"



Look forward to hear your opinions.
Sincerely Lars.

Hey Lars,

I have to say #2's proportion seem more in balance to me. #1 seems too elongated for my eye. But I have a question. Is the butt and neck block areas going to be the drastic of a change from radial to flat and if so how are you going to pull of that sharp of a transition in the rim?

I was going to make a similar comment... For my eye I would like to see the butt end of the lower bout continue with a smooth flowing contour. Having the neck block area come in flat certainly has advantages for neck joint purposes, but for bending purposes, might be pretty tough to do as it is currently drawn.
Certainly a unique look though!

Cheers,
Chad

Hmmm .. maybe I really should get those new glasses. Sorry but I can barely see any difference. But I will say this .. I am not a fan of flattened neck/tail areas, especially on something as curvy looking as a modded jumbo shape - to my eye they dont flow. I spent about two hours with the french curves one afternoon a couple years back to come up with this modded jumbo shape .. maybe it will inspire a new variation on a theme for you ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Great input. Thanks.
Tony, Michael, Goobie. I agree fully, As I said, I am new to this, but I love design, although never done design on guitars before. .. I will change the flattened end and top. and see what it might look like.

I hope I wont be put in the column for "the stupid ones hahaha"

One of the luthiers, either on this forum or one of the others that I frequent, has a guitar with 2 piece sides that resembles what you are doing with these designs. AInstead of trying to bend that tight of a radius in the upper bout sides, he celebrates it with the joint of 2 pieces of wood. I wish I could remember his name so I could give him some credit for the style.

My only concern with what you are showing is the tight radius of the upper bout "points" in the sides. I'm sure it can be done, but to me it looks a little strange. Finding a case to fit it is another concern, but there is nothing that cant be accomplished with the fine folks over at ameritage.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I guess I'm a traditionalist. It looks very different, but who knows, may be the next big thing! They both look very close to me; close enough to not be able to pick one over the other, but I agree that a rounded tail area transition would look better. Good Luck!!

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Brad Tucker

hi Lars
the shapes remind me of Adrian Lucas’s work in the UK.
It might be worth a look here

http://www.lucasguitars.co.uk/steel%20string.htm

and here
http://www.myspace.com/ajlucasluthier

yours Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Well I did some changes to my "mistakes" maby this will be a better idea !! Still a a bit sharp upper bout, but Might be doable ! ?? ..

Please let me know if I am way off. .. and your sooo welcomed inputs.

Thanks for all of your inputs so far !!!!
PS- Geordie , thanks for the links real nice guitars !!.

I like the revised version. Looks like a smoother version of Parker's guitars. http://www.parkerguitars.com/code/models/models_acousticp8_intro.asp

But, I agree with Todd's comments about bending the sides. And, depending on how much of a curve you have at the headblock, setting the neck might not be a whole lot of fun, especially if this is your first build.

The revised shape is has much better transitions for the neck and butt. If this is going to be your first, then the bends in the upper bout and waist are going to be a real challenge. Everything else looks really good. Different enough to be eye catching, yet still very much a guitar shape.

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Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Geordie,

Nice one for putting up the Lucas links. I liked his guitars for a few years now, form what I have seen and heard on the web.

I like the new shape much better, but worry about whether you can bend some woods to that upper bout curve - its pretty tight. I modded my original Solo mold to a smoother transition as some highly figured woods wanted to fracture as I bent around the bout. I also made the upper bout of the bend form solid - no bars, and that helped out a lot. Continuous support from the bottom, and being smoother, made the bending go easier.

I would try this .. take your waist curve, and integrate that into the upper bout .. see what you get.

As for setting the neck ... a little more flossing than a flat area requires, but IMO no more difficult to do. I undercut the heel anyway (butt joints) so that only the outer 1/8 of the heel touches the sides. No big deal after you do that to floss it tight.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

WOW thanks alot. all your inputs are really helping me out, I´ve been reading Cumpiano so my eyes hurt, and bought all of John Mayes Videos, "great videos by the way!!!" and I know I am a bit ahead of what I should be, I meen perhaps I should just get whatever cheap wood and make my first build from that, BUT I intend this guitar to be a darn great sounding piece of master workmanship, so therefor I am getting the goodies wood right away, trying out my own shapes, maby it goes straight to &%%&€€#&%/ but then again it might just be a beauty. I intend to use Black Limba as B/S and I´ve heard its rather easy to bend, will also bend the wood using John Hall´s heating blankets, building a form for it. "in some way" haha. I was a carpenter by trade so I atleast have some experience with chisels haha, although building houses are a bit different from guitars hmm .

Tony, Thanks I lot for your help ! I will try to integrate the waist curve like you said and see what it will look like. what I am trying to achieve is to get the distances from the soundhole to the top and soundhole to the side similar in length. so if its 4" to the top then same goes for side.

Its so good to meet people like you all, here in Sweden if you would ask for help or advise. they would go like - I had to take classes and pay to get help, so why should I help you ..

9 months of cold and 2 month of rain and 1 month of sunlight. haha. - no I am not a negativer person hahaha.

Lars.

Lars said
"9 months of cold and 2 month of rain and 1 month of sunlight. haha. - no I am not a negativer person hahaha."
Lars how can you stand it , a whole mounth of sunlight that would be to much for we Scots, we’er having our summer this weekend.
good luck with your build'
yours Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Lars,
Just to give you an alternative opinion, I like your shape. If the sharp bends in the upper bout is something you like the looks of, then why not? It really is not that difficult to do.
I just finished a Black Limba guitar with some steep bends.
Basically, you want to thin the sides a bit (from the inside) where the steep bend is going to be. With careful planning, you can figure where the bend will be. You can sand about 1/3 less thickness at the bend. Do it by hand and go slow with the heat while bending. Likely it will be best to try this on scrap wood first to get a feel for it. After you get it where you want it, reinforce the inside with a thin laminate and there you go. It just takes a bit more effort and IMO will give your guitar a unique look.
Good luck and please show us your progress.

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Wade !! WOW. I had me a look at your guitars. and man, those guitars are beautiful !!!! Really elegant lines and look. Thank you for the info on bending. I will try it out on scrap wood as you said, to see how it goes. Cant wait to get started.
Geordie Thats funny hahaha.

Hi Lars,
welcome to the forum. I don't think the issue here is whether the shape is pleasing or not. I have to ask why you think you need to create/use a shape that deviates from one of the more traditional, proven shapes when it sounds like this is your first guitar? The learning curve you are facing is steep enough without starting off with something that may or may not work. Not to be negative, but it might make more sense to build something traditional first and get a sense of what this is all about before venturing into the unknown. For me, these aren't just pretty pieces of sculpture. To me, it's more important to make beautiful sounding instruments. When I first started I naively thought I might just get lucky and build a masterpiece right out of the gate. It just doesn't happen. There's way too many unknowns when you start to ever get that lucky. Build something from a known set of plans first and be diligent in your workmanship. Once you think you can build decent sounding instruments, then start to experiment. Right now you don't have the vaguest idea of why you're changing the shape, other than you kind of like the shape. Every single change you make affects the sound of the instrument, so I wouldn't change something unless I had an idea of what a particular change might do sonically. Change for change's sake isn't a very successful formula in my experience. I hate to be a wet blanket, but you just might be setting yourself up for some unnecessary frustration. I wish you the best success no matter which way you plan to go.
Craig S.

Hi Lars,
Haven't had a chance to say "Howdy" yet. Hope you're having a great summer where you be.

Anyway, I'm about half-way thru my first dreadnaught guitar which has all nice flowing curves and nothing really sharp. Looking at your sharp curves puts butterflies in my stomach. Someday I hope to have the ba!!@ to try what you are attempting.

I love the look of your design and just want to say welcome to the forum and keep us posted with LOTS of pictures.

Hope you have an OUTSTANDING day!

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Hi Chuck and Craig. thanks for the varm welcome.

Craig. I agree with all you say. Its my first build, and my head is moving faster then it should. Been Waiting about 2 month for a certain neck. And meenwhile I could not resist to just do nothing creative. Therefor the guitarshapes. I am not fully shure if I will proceed with this challange, as my first build, or leave it for my second or third. If now I even feel that this is something for me, (But my heart and head tells me it is) "so far"...
But again I fully agree with you on that its better to go with whats allready there, and I have Michael Paine´s SJ-plan at John Hall,waiting to be shipped.

But then again, to dream and to try and take a step further from whats usual and ordinary is what brings us to enlightment . haha.
Also I have a good friend here in Sweden whom is a luthier, and he´s agreed to help me out when I am stuck. So with his help and a little help from above I might just end up with a goodie. "or not" haha.


Chuck I look forward to see some of your photos to , do you have some allready ?

I once more want to thank you all, for being so wonderful and giving.
I will try to come and see some of you all sometime, when you put together one of those get-togethers. "With some help from God and or the lottory hahaha " Thank you all !!.

Lars: There's no wrong design only limited ability to do it! It's especially good that you brought these things up here if your a new builder because there's a lot of things that can bite you if your not aware of them(and even if your are sometimes )

Most would probably take an existing design and run wih that to get their chops in but if you've had experience with woodworking and feel the desire then go for it.

With your design, I like it, but the concern with the upper bout bend is justified, it's just you may have to go to a bigger radius in that bend. I've seen venetian cutaways done pretty small, but that ones really tight.(Not unless the guitar body is 4 feet/1200mm long )!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Hey Lars,
Billy T is dying to see a couple pictures of yourself.....you wouldn't mind posting some would you?

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Yeah! I almost forgot, post lots of pix of your work, yourself and permission for me photoshop your image into any form I so choose!!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I just recieved Michael:s SJ-plan. and its a beauty !!!, all I can say is WOW.
So, as many of you suggested, I will be building my first guitar from Michaels Plan. But the next one though !!!

PS/ Yes I will post a lot of photos, as I start my build.

Lars.