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About a year ago, I bout about 8 sets of east indian rosewood and on average paid about $30 per set for it.

Recently I have ran out of stock and need to get more, but to my surprise the stuff I paid $25 for last year has now risen to $75/set. I dont even see EIR sets on eBay for some reason. I also need some to make necks with, but this has been a lesson in futility to find too.

Did something happen with the EIR supply that I missed?

Anybody know whats going on?

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Reguards,

Ken H

I've never seen EIR sets of good quality that low priced but I've also only has WAS for 6 years now.

When I first started building 6 years ago, I paid $75/each for two sets of AAA EIR from Ed Dicks at AC tonewoods (soon to be acousticwoods.ca) and that was the best price I could find for that quality of EIR.

What was the quality of those 8 sets at $30 each. Either the guy you bought it from didn't know what he had or you bought student grade EIR from allied (which works out to $30/set when buying 6-12 sets).

Quality of the wood (as I think you know) is the difference in price. Straight grain, well quartered, little runout, even color all add up to more $$$.

Like they say, you get what you pay for. If those 8 sets are all straight grain, well quartered, little runout, even color and you paid $30/set than you got one heck of a great deal and you should count your blessing because someone didn't know what they were selling at that price.

I remember a couple years ago John Hall of Blues Creek did a group buy of EIR that he got right from the sorce in India and I think after the group discount (I think it was something like 200 sets) was $58 per set for AAAA in the rough (wet) EIR sets. That was a smoking good deal.

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Thanks Rod. I must have just been at the right place at the right time. Seems like I bought several sets of it from someone on the swap meet and then bought several more sets from other sources too. Some of it I had had for several years. All of it was pretty nice looking stuff, reasonably straight grained with no issues or weird colors. Somebody must have been looking out for me. I have been sitting on this wood for a while now and all of a sudden it has become popular.

I guess the $75/set for AAA graded stuff isnt such a bad deal after all. Just comes as a shock.

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Reguards,

Ken H

A few years ago I've got ten "opportunity grade" sets from Allied Lutherie at $10 a set! Seven of them are more or less equal to the EIR B&S of a Ramirez 4E I've seen, and the rest are just spectacular. Of course it's been sold out long before my shipment arrived so I can't order more. BTW I'm fine with some mineral deposit and estate EIR.

The spectacular ones look like some of the EIR sets at AL's weekly special, with dark red, dark green, or shimmer grain.

The two in my shop right now are being built with Allied's "opportunity grade" I picked up for $25 a set a couple of years ago.

I just came from their site, though, and it looks like bargains are still to be had. Prices from $90 for their "best" sets to $34 for their "seconds". Standard grade is $50. Cheaper than that if you buy more than 6 sets. Not too bad...

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/indian.htm

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

The fact is that the market for indian rosewood has changed over the last few years.
it seems that people tend want the "lower grade" stock becouse it has more character.
the grading system for indian rosewood was designed by theodore nagle when they started working with the mills in the late 50,s -60.s at the time classical guitars were the main market and people wanted perfectly streight grained quarter sawn wood with no color varigation at all and very tight grain lines.
as time went on the market changed and people started prefering wood with a more color varigaton and slightly wider grain.
people realised that with indian rosewood the visual properties bore little relation to the stucteral properties of the wood.
therefore we started seeing the larger makers using wider grained sets with more color stripes also people went for more brownish color than the deep purple of the high grade stuff that goes allmost black when finished.

becouse of this (and the obviouse business reasons) many people started buying from the low to mid-grades.

The problem is the indian mills did not change there grading with market so what happens now is the dealers buy 100-1000 sets from the mills in indian and promptly re grade as soon it comes in.
this has pushed the price indian rosewood up as people are regradeing to maximise profit which you have to do with any product (especialy if there is no regulation).

still its very cheap though in fact i sell it cheaper than my plain mahogany at $55-$120 at the moment.

but the fact is that 9 times out of ten when someone goes through my stacks of rosewood they will pic a mid grade set with something a bit more interesting than the high grade sets.

That said i have some very picky classical makers that will only use the very best deep purple even colored stuff.

it just goes to show how one mans trash is anothers tresure.
for example indian rosewood often has wondrfull curly figure but this wood get graded out at the mils and never makes to the retailers unless by accident.
if that was maple it would be the other way round.

This is just my take on it and i am sure its not as clear cut as that.
i would just sugest that you buy rosewood on personal preferance.
in fact some of my "low grade stock" represents a very good deal and is one of my best selling items.

on the other end of the scale i cant seem to shift indian rosewood fingerboards but again people like mid grade with some stripeing (as long as its not too course).

its so dificult to know how to grade wood becouse what would be a defect in one wood would be sort after in the next, go figure.

joel.

After euro conversion, VAT...shipping...I end up paying around 150$ if not more for the kind Joel mentions above. Since I just started building I only bought 3 sets and they are making serious holes in my tiny budget

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Build log

Man, Europe must be tough. Do they make you send out the wood to the "jointer" guy, or can you get a license to join your tops and backs?

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I know one of the suppliers in India. Two years ago he told me that the good logs are mostly depleted. The trees do not grow back as fast as they were harvested. So now we are settling on poorer quality at a higher price, just as we do with BRW.

I thought EIR was plantation grown, that is, most of the stuff even far back is not naturally found.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

...Guilds, Unions controlled the trades in lower Europe,(and still do to a large degree.) If you wanted to join up your wood and you were a professional woodcarver you would have to go get the jointer to do it...way way back when.

A very good and relevant read:

http://parentfrost.netfirms.com/Miersch ... d%20SS%20R

Prussia and other states limited the possibilities for the erection of a non-guild shop beyond the influence of the guilds, which gradually deprived the independent tradesman of his legal sanction.hein_files/Tischler.htm

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

My friend says that the good EIR is not plantation grown, and that even most of the poor stuff is wild. The government regulates the harvest and austions the logs to the processors.

The plantation grown indian rosewood is known as sonokeling and to be honest its very poor stuff.
it has very wide grain and a dirty grey color.
it also has lots of greens and brown and is no where near as stable as old growth stock.
i sell sonokeiling finger boards and necks at less than half the price of old growth stock(in fact about a 1/3 the price in the case of figerboards).
Sonokeling is fine to export as lumber so you will see in your lumber yard but most people wouldent bother cutting into sets as the real stuff is readily available allready processed.

its true as it gets easier to get into the forests to remove the best trees stocks are getting harder and harder so source.
also a good indian rosewood tree would take in excess of 250 years to grow and only an hour or so to cut down.
but india have been very clever and they banned export of indian rosewood in anything other than processed parts many years ago.
not only does this ensure jobs for indian workers but it means that they control the harvesting much easier.
in fact the govenment harvests the logs and then sells them to local mills at auctions.
This is why you never see anyone cutting indian rosewood sets themselves and why they are allways so thick and have so many saw marks.
All the sets are cut in the indian mills and shipped over here pre processed.

If brazil had done this we may still have some brw to use these days with out having $500.

We also have to realise that as oil prices rise shipping and importation costs will rise which will push up the wood prices.
unfortunatly the end user is the one that suffers for this.

We will still have indian rosewood for the forseable future but the prices will rise and quality drop i think we have to except that this will be the case with many woods.

indian rosewood is well managed in india becouse its such an important export so i dont think we have to worry about loosing it. but bear in mind that wood prices will rise with standard inflation and as supply start to run low.


Joel.

And a weak dollar hurts too.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

The cost of a shipping container from Japan/China to Canada has tripled in the last 5 years - its only going get worse .... pretty soon I figure we wont sell that many guitars from here overseas because the shipping will kill us - In the last while I have paid 450 to Denmark, 600
+ to Italy, 550 to New Zealand (they originally wanted over 800), and have one going to Singapore next year ... ouch. You folks in the US have it a little better because the main distribution for the big couriers is there .. I have to pay to get it there thru customs before it barely starts its journey.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Not everyone

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Yeah mon - see if you feel the same way when I don't buy that Aston Martin........ A weak dollar will be felt many places in time.........

The weak dollar helps now that the shipping charges have gone through the roof like Tony says. We also have the 25% import tax (even the shipping charges are taxed!) + handling fees and various b.s. mark-ups, so I'm lucky if the price I paid for wood from a US vendor is only doubled by the time I can sticker it. I am not looking forward to a stronger dollar.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[/quote]

The weak dollar helps now that the shipping charges have gone through the roof like Tony says. We also have the 25% import tax (even the shipping charges are taxed!) + handling fees and various b.s. mark-ups, so I'm lucky if the price I paid for wood from a US vendor is only doubled by the time I can sticker it. I am not looking forward to a stronger dollar.[/quote]

this was one of the reasons for starting tonewood supplies.
even though the dollar is week in europe we get hit really bad with import duties and customs charges and like you say you often double the price you pay for the wood.
my theory was that if i could supply high grade wood at competative price to the us then many people would buy there stock from me.
at the end of the day if you are building guitars for a living you have to keep materiel costs as low as possable and charges on shipping will add to that.

At present over 80% of the european trade is going to the states by default becouse there are very few dealers who supply the blingy figured woods and if you ca get them they cost the earth.
thats crazy if you think about it.

Joel.

Shipping internationally is a real challenge. USPS charges will range(given the weight is say 20lbs, not 3lbs which can be higher) from 2.50 to say 5.70 per. pound. Just the shipping charge for woods such as Cocobolo will add $12-$30 per. bd. ft, a wood like Walnut will be more like $8-$20 per. bd. ft. That is a LOT of added cost per. bd. ft. of wood. Especially when the price of these woods(retail) often falls within those ranges depending on grade. Buying these woods milled into sets is actually a very smart way to go, because there is loss that usually is 30% or greater when milling(by volume). That means you can ship 30% less wood(less weight) vs milling these woods from raw stock.

Taking a $30 cost for a set of rosewood as Ken mentioned. That cost of shipping could easily be as high as the set itself. When import taxes are added it would even be higher. It can almost become a game where the cost of wood is the small fraction of the final cost. From a sellers perspective on this side of the pond, there is little that trying to offer the best price possible can do to help. Even when large purchases are used to reduce material costs the savings is a tiny fraction of the final cost when shipped overseas. Shoot I remember when surface shipping went away and prices doubled. It made it pretty much cost prohibitive to ship billets to friends who resawed(cost of the billets often doubled).

I suppose it is just the way it is, and we all will work out the best way to work with the system. People who are buying lumber or parts should consider the weight of anything they buy and have shipped. Evaluate the actual cost of the item based on that delivered cost, and compair it to buying locally(or more local options). Same holds true overseas or here in the states. Shipping across the country will add $3 to $10 per. bd. ft. for those chunks of Cocobolo, and you need to think of it that way. The cost to drive to a yard that is 20-30 miles away may actually make shipping a viable option(with current gas prices). Transportation is such a huge factor in purchases today, it pays to try to think about being as efficient as possible.

Peace,Rich

Speaking from my own personal experience dealing with you in the OLF Swap-meets Rich, I find your understanding of the shipping situation refreshing. I have experienced a few occasions in the past when dealing with some other vendors who don't seem to have your insight were I have been very disappointed to find that what had been on offer or represented in images, was not actually what was packed. When a customer has paid the kind of premium you speak of I guess the expectation and anticipation can be higher so getting diddled can be a bitter pill.

Also, it is worth mentioning that to add to the 30% one burns in the 'ship and resaw a billet' scenario, one must also consider the risk factor in as much that billets are like a box of Forrest Gump's chocolates, one internal sap vein could leave you with a big expensive box of head plates, fingerboards and bridge blanks but not one book matched set of sides that the chosen billet was meant to produce. No vendor is going to want to share your pain so you are out big time.

Consider this and the expensive practice of buying pre-cut sets ex USA to ship into Australia begins to make some sense. That being the case, thank goodness for vendors like Steve Roberson @ Colonial Tonewoods, Bob C at RC Tonewoods, Larry Davies at Gallery Hardwoods and of course yourself Rich Fry, because dealing with you guys is a safe and secure option for those of us hidden in the shadow of the eight ball of distance.

Cheers

Kim

Oh the 30% loss factor I mentioned is 100% clean resawing, and assumes a cut billet sized very close to set dimensions, with no surfacing required to speak of prior to resaw. The actual amount of wood, if one averaged from larger buys of ruff stock, possible losses during drying, surfacing, over dimension waste, hidden defects etc... would really supprise most people(but I am sure any of the sponcers would attest to, BTW; I am not a full time dealer, so I am not in that same catagory). That of course is why "resaw billets" are very expensive. If you get into soundboard stock and raw split bolt or even cut billets. The waste and losses, or weaker graded sets that you will find make it a huge crap shoot and waste becomes even higher(MUCH higher). My advise to any fellow resawers out there who are just getting their feet wet. Never count your chickens before they are hatched, and DO NOT buy billets based on anticipated yeild (if it is softwood, you can not buy a graded raw billet and assume you will not run into flaws that degrade the wood or possibly make it useless, not to mention how the heck would they evaluate stiffness). If you do buy resawing billets, your time and risk to resaw makes up a good portion of the value when wood is finally cut to sets. If a dealer wants to sell musical instrument wood priced on yeild, they need to cut that wood and prove the value is there. After resawing for long enough you realise you don't get burned when you run into defects, it is all part of the average, you only get burned when you pay more than you should have payed based on the averages. Same is true when you are drying stock. You buy green, you must count on heavy loss(that is part of drying). A person who buys green wood, high graded, based on a full or very high yeild is paying WAY to high a price, and will likely get burned every time(only a small miracle could prevent that).

Anywhoo... Sorry for the long winded ramble

Rich

This has been a most unexpected response to the question pondered!

I had really expected to hear that one of the large companies had just bought their annual supply of wood and this was the reason for the low supply and high costs right now. I know that I have seen the prices of koa rise and fall in just a couple of years time, so I was assuming that this had something to do with it too.

I have been trying to buy larger quantities of back and side sets when I find bargains, and it looks like I am just going to have to buy enough to get me by for now and wait to stock up on the EIR until the prices drop again or the supply increases.

Thanks for all of the responses to this!

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Reguards,

Ken H

if you want to save on indian rosewood you inport say 50 sets your self from the mills in india.
you will find them very easy to deal with and very very eager to sell you even 5 sets.
the shipping costs are good and you can save a bundle.

that said be carfull there is more than one dealer in india selling sonokeling as old growth stock allways ask for a sample.

you should be looking at about $34 for high grade sts if you are buying in small quantity,s

arya woods are quite good and have some good grade stock.

Joel.