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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:07 pm 
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laurent wrote:
I disagree with this. Again and again educated ears tend to gravitate toward the same guitar(s) in a given group of instruments. As for uneducated ears (beginners) they tend to gravitate toward what's easier to play, or strike their fancy in terms of aesthetics.


One could argue that it's precisely this education of the ears that causes us to gravitate toward the same guitars because it's the education that puts into our head a preconceived notion of what is good and/or bad or what is desirable and what is not. We are drawn to what we consider or are taught to be the norm. To assume that the "uneducated" ears have a tendency to gravitate toward what's easier to play or what they find pretty as opposed to what sounds good I believe is an insult to these people. Even "uneducated" ears have their own opinions on what they sounds good and what sounds bad. If the difference between a good sounding guitar and a bad sounding guitar was so clear cut, we would not have the vast market and the numerous options that we have today. The truth is that we're all looking for something different from our instrument and whether a given instrument is "good" for me is defined by how it measures up in comparison to what I'm looking for as an individual.

I think it was Howard that best understood my intention in my previous post. Yes, I do believe in God, but I also believe that the totality of our human experiences can be explained in physical terms. The things we hear, the things we feel, these are all our reactions to various stimuli in the world around us. In a sense, I believe there is a magic that we feel emotionally in the joy of a craft, but there is no magic inherent in any craft itself (with the exception of witchcraft if it exists? :D ) A guitar is a physical object that was built using physical processes. Therefore, everything pertaining to the qualities and characteristics of a guitar can be explained in physical terms. Things such as love and care are not physical elements in themselves that have any bearing on the sound of an instrument. More care of course, will often lead to a better instrument but this is not because we take something called "care" and put it into the build physically, but because that care causes us to take greater concentration when dealing with some physical element within the guitar.

Yes, a farmer could probably predict the weather to an extent. When it will rain, when it will snow, etc. But could he predict how MUCH it will rain? Or how long the rain will last? Could he do it to greater accuracy than the technology we have available today? Probably not. It's not just a matter of whether it rains or not, each separate occasion of rain is a unique experience that presents it's own unique issues. A farmer could tell me it's going to rain, but I'd rather have the meteorologist tell me that there's going to be enough rain to cause significant flooding in my neighborhood.

As for the importance of our senses, I think medical science proves time and time again that our senses are often much more inaccurate than the prosthetic devices that we use. If I had the decision between trusting my senses or trusting a well calibrated device, I think it would be foolhardy for me to place greater faith in the prior simply because senses can be downright wrong. Which of your senses would you place your faith on? All of them can be fooled easily depending on your physical state or your surroundings. A compass will point me to magnetic north regardless of whether I've been placed in a dark box. Your eyes and human senses will not. Our eyes fall victim to optical illusions all the time. Depending on the direction of stripes, we can perceive things to be longer or shorter, but a ruler will give us consistent results time and time again. Depending on our body temperature at any given point, we can perceive the air around us to be colder or warmer, but a thermometer will give us a consistent and true reading. For instance, if you're coming from somewhere very cold, a 70-degree temperature controlled room would seem very warm. On the other hand if you are coming from somewhere very hot, that same 70-degree room can seem very cold. Our senses and our perception are all relative things that can be manipulated without much difficulty. Therefore, I don't believe that human sense perception should play such a huge role in anything that requires precision. This is not to say that having a good eye or good feel for things is bad, but just to say that you will always be less accurate than a well-calibrated machine.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:52 am 
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We can assume that the average luthier doesn't prepare to tune a soundboard by first cranking out some Metallica at volume 11. They do it in an environment where they know, through experience, that they can trust their sense; in this respect the argument for altered perception seems to fall short. The dark box argument doesn't do it for me by virtue of the fact that in introducing the dark box you are removing the individual from their comfort zone and as such rendering their intuition useless. I can navigate my home in pitch black darkness, but I surely couldn't do the same in anyone else's.

I guess the real argument is, when you relinquish scientific control of a specific element of lutherie and put trust into your intuition, senses and experience, how much of an effect will this have on the outcome?

To me trying to quantify every single element of a guitar is a fruitless endeavour. You might be able to get an extra significant figure or two of accuracy out of say a particular bracing pattern, assuming of course that the desired tonal properties are themselves measurable. But that is negating the fact that something as simple as the way and position that the guitar string was plucked will render this degree of accuracy completely meaningless.

This sort of unfettered scientific precision definitely has its place in lutherie, but I suspect more so in electronic and digital technology, such as Rick Turner's Ampli-Coustic range, than traditional acoustic design and construction.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:16 am 
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jhowell wrote:
In general, I agree with Michael's point number 3. In my mind the rub is in "density of wood", though more properly we should probably be speaking of the Young's Modulus. Wood was alive and enjoys (suffers?? :P ) the vagaries of life -- as we all do. Wood is a very cool engineering material, but is varies from piece to piece, from inch to inch (cm to cm) along the same piece of brace wood, etc. There comes a point when you just have to feel it and listen to it and in my mind, that negates some portion of point number 5.


This btw, is probably the thing that's most interesting about carbon tops - now you're using a uniform material so when you do come up with a design that sounds good, you should be able to do it over and over again (if that's what you're after that is).

I don't remember which maker, but someone's making guitars with carbon tops and no additional bracing. The CF is laid up to provide the builder's desired "cross grain" and "long grain" stiffness. One could also make thin parts or thick parts to provide asymmetries to the stiffness etc.

Although this provides a repeatable solution, you've still got the voodoo of finding what sounds good in the first place. [headinwall]

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Last edited by Andy Birko on Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:16 am 
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Michael Jin wrote:
To assume that the "uneducated" ears have a tendency to gravitate toward what's easier to play or what they find pretty as opposed to what sounds good I believe is an insult to these people.


Michael, I think we inhabit a different planet.
Where you are, all children are probably above average.
There is such a thing as educated, all it takes is training and experience.
And uneducated is not pejorative. 99% of people playing the guitar are not so fussy about the tone, they want it to sound like a guitar…
As for the rest of your essay, I am not sure I understand. It sounds to me like hyper-materialism with a bit of French positivism thrown in…

In the world I live in, senses are to be trusted.
What our ears are able to discern is far more complex than any psycho-acoustic program can ever model. What my fingers can sense is beyond any modeling done through binary code. Those senses are trained, sharp and a product of millions of years of evolution.

I wonder how the rest of the animal world manages without technology, or how humans have survived on this planet before the industrial revolution.

Talking about hummingbirds I can almost be sure they don't use GPS systems to travel from Southern to Northern hemispheres and back every year.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:39 am 
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Michael Jin wrote:
As for the importance of our senses, I think medical science proves time and time again that our senses are often much more inaccurate than the prosthetic devices that we use. Therefore, I don't believe that human sense perception should play such a huge role in anything that requires precision. This is not to say that having a good eye or good feel for things is bad, but just to say that you will always be less accurate than a well-calibrated machine.


The problem with definite statements is, you have to be able to back them up.
So…
- Where can I find that, time and time again, medical science (medecine?) proves that prosthetic devices are more accurate than senses?
- We will always be less accurate than what well-calibrated machine? And… who built the machine in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:00 am 
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ToddStock wrote:
I love the whole 'wood is alive' thing. In 35 years of woodworking, I'm still waiting for a finished piece of furniture to pop out a twig or a stack of maple to dump a bunch of those little autorotating seeds on the shop floor. The closest I've seen is wood so beetle-laden that the bark was moving around as the little critters moved from their living rooms to kitchens for dinner.


Todd,

A lot of things in history come about from transcription errors, mis-translation and mis-hearing the spoken word. This one came from the third century mystic "Vic the Chopper" who worshiped wood for all of his life but on his death bed had a sudden vision and managed to scrawl on a nearby parchment "Wood is a lie V" just before he passed away - the rest is history as they say. Spreadsheet is another mistransciption of a spoken description.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:03 am 
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laurent wrote:
- Where can I find that, time and time again, medical science (medecine?) proves that prosthetic devices are more accurate than senses?
- We will always be less accurate than what well-calibrated machine? And… who built the machine in the first place?


Take 396 pieces of wood of arbitrary length.

Measure them by eye.

Now measure them with a ruler.

Which do you think will be more accurate? Your visual sense or the ruler that man built?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:06 am 
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laurent wrote:

In the world I live in, senses are to be trusted.


Absolutely! I completely agree with this statement. The human organism's ability to sense is more than likely why we still exist today. OTH our senses have also threatened our species time and time again too.

I don't want to misquote Al C. here but what I have understood from his awesome posts is that no matter how much you attempt to apply precise measurement and science to the "art" of guitar building at the end of the day science and technology is not the end all to be all for determining if a guitar is going to sound, to the human perception, great or not.

Science and technology is very important but I agree with Laurent that we also have the ability to sense minute differences with all of our sensory tools.

How often have you positioned a bridge, measured it as precisely as you can, backed off and viewed it from some distance, noticed that it looked crooked, measured again and discovered that your original measurements were in error? This happens to me all of the time....... And if I cannot reconcile what I am seeing with what I am measuring I go with what I am seeing.

As for tone any builder that does not at least attempt to begin to experience the audible results of your bracing and tweaking you are missing a huge opportunity to optimize your guitars and perhaps one day understand what separates the masters from the model airplane kit builders...... Man - I think that I just sounded like Rick there..... :D

JJ told me that he knows a builder who told him early on that JJ should cut up little pieces of the woods that we use, spruce, mahogany, rosewood, etc. and carry them in his pocket. JJ was interested in learning about wood and this builder suggested that JJ set himself up so that he could throughout the course of the day feel his wood....... many times and note the differences. I am being serious here. This was an exercise in helping someone to begin to understand the properties of wood. When I heard this story I too cut up pieces of wood and took them to work with me and kept them on my desk. I also took these samples to meetings, flipped them over and over while on the phone, took every opportunity to start to learn the many things that the wood will tell you if you simply put some effort and openness into learning about wood.

I noticed how on drier days the spruce was louder and also sounded drier and scratchier and I also noticed how the rosewood had an oily feel to it over time. When dropped the samples on a hard surfaces they pinged and pinged in different ways and tones. I could even hold my samples on the nodes and tap them and listen to the results.

The Luthier who suggested that JJ start to learn about wood by carrying it around and using his senses to feel and listen to the wood is Mario.

I see lots of folks here and on several other forums that I participate with take one of two approaches. They will either be seeking to use science to find the magic bullet to guitar building or they will be open tot he idea that what some may call the magic of the wood is indeed a sensory realization that some have the ability to recognize and IMHO most have the ability, if open to the idea, to learn.

There is an excellent article in the current AG about our friend Mark Blanchard and this article describes rather well how Mark uses both science and his senses to build his awesome guitars.

I would never attempt to play a round of golf with only one club nor would I ever attempt to build a guitar and not take advantage of the science available to me AND the sensory gifts that our species does indeed have.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:49 am 
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Andy Birko wrote:
Take 396 pieces of wood of arbitrary length. Measure them by eye.Now measure them with a ruler.Which do you think will be more accurate? Your visual sense or the ruler that man built?


Sorry to be rude but I think we are approaching stupid here…
A ruler is not a prosthetic device.
I can as well measure with my hand, arm, foot, a twig or anything I can think about…
I do not know how to measure with my eye.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:31 am 
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When building a guitar, I rely on the Force.

;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:34 am 
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Quote:
I love the whole 'wood is alive' thing.


Todd--

I'd like to expand on my point a bit. My verbatim quote was:

Quote:
Wood was alive and enjoys (suffers?? :P ) the vagaries of life -- as we all do.


This statement, in its original context, was referring to the inconsistency that naturally occurs in wood, as an engineering material, because it was alive at one point and not created in a factory. Artificially created engineering materials certainly have a higher degree of consistency and can be more easily modeled by a mathematical formula, though none are completely consistent.

The understanding that I have come to is that I can't understand some portion of what is going on in the voicing of a guitar top via mathematical model, but I can understand it empirically via my senses. It is up to me to choose that place along the continuum where I abandon some sort of a math model and trust my senses, more precisely embrace my senses. Again, it all comes back to diminishing returns. It also seems to me that being comfortable on both ends of this continuum are important -- it doesn't have to be either, or. I absolutely devour anything I can find by Al C. I also try to exercise my senses as much as I can. Grumpy, er... Mario's advice to JJ is good advice for us all.

I do not consider this to be magic, though the outcome can be quite magical. I have found this thread to be enlightening in the sense that it has touched on some issues that aren't discussed a whole lot here and more importantly, it has remained a very civil look at two different sides of lutherie. I don't see any of this in terms of right and wrong, only in the terms of how I've come to look at things and how my understandings are currently working for me. This is always subject to change -- and that can be magical too! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:27 pm 
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ToddStock wrote:
I think that the idea that informal scientific method and use of senses is somehow in opposition is a little silly.


I totally agree with this.

What's even sillier is the idea that everything and anything can be measured, briefed, filed and so on… until a perfect formula is achieved. I think there was a bit of irony in Howard's mention of Laplace…
I am afraid that whatever constitutes the quality of an exceptional guitar will forever remain elusive, and sure whatever method one develops helps toward that goal, whatever the level of technology or tooling used. It's a work in progress for anybody seriously involved in the craft, and that's what makes it exciting as well.
Even the best builders putting out consistently excellent instruments have their exceptional numbers that cannot be replicated.
Stradivarius is believed to have built around 1200 instruments and among the 600 or so surviving there is wide consensus on which ones are the best, and which ones are average (for a Strad…).
The irony is with all the technology, science and pseudo-science thrown at trying to replicate Cremona instruments, still, 17th century craftmanship cannot be surpassed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:30 pm 
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I think the simple appeal of x bracing with tone bars is that it can easily and subtly be modified by slightly splaying them or moving them closer together ... Jody


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Todd--

Not to worry! I've found this thread to be quite enjoyable. It is very interesting to see how folks go about solving the issue of making a guitar. To me, this has been one of those Saturday evening chats over a beer that leads to closer understanding.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:39 pm 
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laurent wrote:
Andy Birko wrote:
Take 396 pieces of wood of arbitrary length. Measure them by eye.Now measure them with a ruler.Which do you think will be more accurate? Your visual sense or the ruler that man built?


Sorry to be rude but I think we are approaching stupid here…
A ruler is not a prosthetic device.
I can as well measure with my hand, arm, foot, a twig or anything I can think about…
I do not know how to measure with my eye.


I think that the original poster was using prosthesis in a more general sense, e.g. a ruler is an artificial device made by man to make up for our natural deficiency in measurement ability.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Andy Birko wrote:
I think that the original poster was using prosthesis in a more general sense, e.g. a ruler is an artificial device made by man to make up for our natural deficiency in measurement ability.


Yeah I realised afterward.
I understand prosthesis as replacing a biological function. A ruler, for me, is a tool.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:32 pm 
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David Collins wrote:
Mike Mahar wrote:
I tend to like the Martin sound while my neighbor loves his Hummingbird.



You made this up as an example, right? You don't know actually know someone who likes a Hummingbird......

laughing6-hehe


Alas, I did not make this up. He loves his hummingbird. I practically drew blood biting my tongue when he first showed it to me. All the while I was wondering how many socks I'd have to stuff into a Martin D28 to get that same sound.

I don't know the production numbers for the Hummingbird but I think that Gibson sold a bunch of them. Somebody must like them.

My point is that there is pretty wide range in what someone will think is "good". Especially w.r.t. the steel string acoustic. I don't like the sound of Selmer/McCaffery guitars, for example. However, If I were conscripted into a Gypsy Jazz band, that's what I'd play. The music wouldn't sound "right" on a Martin with all those shimmering overtones.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:44 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Ah, the 'Art vs Science' thread; as if it always had to be a 'versus'.

Why would you NOT want to understand your job in a rational way?

Senses can be very accurate. They can also be very inaccurate. Some tests that have been done show that some luthiers who think they can accurately gauge the stiffness of a piece of wood are correct, and some are not. The problem is that many of the folks who can't do it think they can.

Often what your senses 'measure' is much different from what a tool does. There is no agreed upon way to translate your perception of 'loudness' to a number on the dBA scale. Neither is 'wrong', neither is 'better' in every circumstance, but they sure are different. You have to use them for what they are.

No measurement is 100% accurate, no matter how it's done.

The best measurement in the world might not mean anything. As far as I'm concerned, you can measure the conjunction of Venus and Jupiter to the milisecond, and it won't make any difference in the weather tomorrow. 'Validity' is just as important as 'accuracy'.

There is no quantitative definition of what a 'good' guitar is. Still, if you measure the response of enough guitars you'll start to notice that the good ones (as judged by players and listeners) tend to work in similar ways. If you can figure out how to make your guitars work that way, you are more likely to make good ones. Your 'standard of mediocrity' will go up.

As far as I know, we don't have a clue in any measureable sense as to what the difference is between a 'good' guitar and a 'great' one. There is every reason to think that it's in the high frequency region, where we won't have any specific control anyway. Still, some poeple do manage to make 'great' instruments more often than others. Partly, I think, they start from a higher standard of mediocrity, but there is probably something else involved as well. Maybe it has to do with what they did at the crossroads with the goat at midnight? ;)

The guitar is a very complicated machine, and there are lots of variables involved, none of which seem to be totally independant of the others. It seems to me as though getting most of them 'right' (whatever that is) will result in making a good guitar. It almost doesn't matter WHICH ones you don't get right, just so you get most of them. Some poeple work with a different set of variables than I do, and some of the things I consider important might not be on their radar. We both get good results, but they're different. It keeps things interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:57 pm 
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No measurement is 100% accurate, no matter how it's done. Yep, hard to argue that one Al.

I always liked these examples of measurements ...

Consider the math equation for a line segment, 0<x<10. How long is the line segment ??? Well, we can see that its shorter than 10 units .... however, no matter how many decimal places you use, the line can always be made longer .. it is in effect, infinite.

My grandmother was always one for a measured shot in her rye and ginger ... one day, I free-poured a shot as I mixed her a drink, to which she replied "Tony, how much is that ?". I replied back, holding my finger to the level of the rye in the glass ..."its EXACTLY this much". You cant get more accurate than that. BTW, I still have a scar where the evil eye of death ray hit me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:52 pm 
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While I agree with your point (arbitrary precision is theoretically impossible), I don't like your math. It's not a line equation, it's a bound on a variable of nonnegative value less than ten. It is the exact opposite of infinite, it's as finite as can be! (Of course, we don't actually have any way of telling if we live in a discrete universe or not so it might well be that the length of something real can only have a certain number of decimals...)

We don't have to deal with strictly abstract objects in lutherie, it can all be measured to tighter tolerances than it needs to be if we had the money for the instruments and any idea what to do with the data. If guitars with a certain sound could feed, move, or kill people more effectively than the current way we do it you can bet in short time we'd have some pretty efficient and repeatable ways to measure and adjust all kinds of properties we never thought we could.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:49 am 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
Ah, the 'Art vs Science' thread; as if it always had to be a 'versus'.


Al, you put it much more eloquently, but this is what I was trying to convey…
It is often those set on the idea that there must be a formula to build the perfect guitar who insist that "emotions" or "senses" cannot be trusted. Probably remnants of Anglo-Protestantism, and deep in the culture.
For the rest of those who happily use whatever technology/science to build, they also realize that it brings them only so far. And I think anybody strives to reduce the unknown-unknowns to known-knowns, or at least known-unknowns.
But the last leg of the build, so to speak, must be done on the consciousness level.
Nothing magical with that, this is what I call the working of experience. Clearly if the senses have no experience in the matter they hardly can be trusted. It's never too late to train, we tend to forget the potential we have in ourselves and the enormous range available in our hearing and touching.
To take a simple example, it's great to take notes on builds (and I do), but writing can also hamper our ability to memorize.
I think Brave Buffalo once said "writing is forgetting", answering the question why Sioux, in spite of their enormous vocabulary, didn't develop a written language.
So perhaps, there is a balance to strike there, and no art vs. science.

A final note on higher frequencies: theoretically we only hear up to about 20KHz, which is why the first digital standards (CD, DAT etc.) were sampled at 44.1KHz (about double). Interestingly, when I was doing recording/sound engineering, I slowly switched to 48KHz because of DVD mastering, and I thought it sounded slightly better than 44.1KHz most of the time. I couldn't really describe it, but it was there -providing good audio equipment-. Then 88.2KHz and 96KHz came and I used that, because again, it had an elusive "better" quality to it, even when the project was finally dithered and down-sampled to 16bit/44.1KHz.
Some people prefer analog recording and vinyl pressing, in spite of the higher floor noise level, because there is no sampling limit. The only limiting factor is the recording and playback equipment (usually analog as well).
So if theoretically we can only hear up to 20KHz, why do we hear a difference with sampling rates that go far beyond our perception, and that get dithered and downsampled anyway (and later played on average equipment…)?
There is something up there in those frequencies, and they affect dynamics and lower frequencies as well, that we can't measure (yet, perhaps…) but yet makes a difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:23 am 
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Hey Bob .. its not my math .. you will have to take that one up with one of my high school math teachers. If its so finite, tell me how it ends ???

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:33 am 
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Laurent,
I think that Al is talking about a much lower high frequency. When we measure the sound coming off of a guitar and do a spectral analysis, the information that we get between 0 and 1Khz has noticeable patterns in it. The signals above 1Khz look pretty random. We are just now starting to draw correlations between the patterns that we in the lower frequencies and subjective listening test. These correlations seem to be in the range of what is an average or poor guitar and what is a good guitar. As to what is a great guitar, that seems to be in the frequencies above 1Khz. We don't know what or how to measure the higher frequencies yet.

As for your recording experiences, your observations are probably correct. While we cannot hear above 20Khz, that doesn't mean that signals above 20Khz don't affect what we do hear. Consider that you have two signals, one a 30Khz and the other at 31Khz. You shouldn't be able to hear either of the two signals. However, there is a beat frequency at 1Khz that would be produced if those two signals were heard at the same time and 1Khz is something that you can hear. That is why a CD player has to filter out signals above 20Khz. The signals above that are just noise. Because you want the output at 20Khz to be at the same strength as the rest of the signal and you want the signal at 22Khz to be almost 0, you have to put in a very steep filter. As it turns out, steep filters introduce phase distortion in the signal that they pass. This distortion is very detectable to the human ear. That is why CD players do something called over sampling. If you generate 4 or 8 samples for every one read from the disk, you can interpolate the missing information. You can then use a filter with a much shallower slope and those filters don't have as much phase distortion.

Over sampling with interpolation isn't as good as having real signal information, however. So using a higher sampling frequency during the recording process means that the signal loss that you get when you master for the CD will be the only place that the loss occurs and you get a truer representation of the original. If you record at the lower sample frequency and then do other processing on that signal, any distortion introduced during that processing will more likely affect that audible result.

I've never been a recording engineer and what I know I got from "book learn'n". I don't have very good ears either so a lot of what other builders say about the sound of an instrument is lost on me and I just have to take their word for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Mike, thanks for the detailed clarification. We also could get into the bit rate, but that mostly affects dynamics…
BTW Bob Katz has a lot of excellent papers on engineering and mastering.
IME few people were able to differentiate between high sampling rates.
What I hear coming out of a steel-string guitar is a lot of partials, what we variously refer as "overtones" or "air". Tastes vary widely, but those who seek a "rich" guitar tone tend to like the bass/mid registers ladden with partials, but still clear, and fairly fundamental high registers, especially up the neck where strings do not have a lot of power and can sound thin.
IMHO the frequencies coming out of those partials, especially with wound strings, are way up the frequency range.

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