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Hi all. Have you guys seen Kevin Ryans eq bracing. Well anyone is free to comment !!! .

Absolutely fascinating bracing/photo Lars my friend! Thanks for posting this.

I just blew up the photo and stared at it for about 10 minutes. Here are my initial impressions:

1) It's Ryan all the way - very innovative.

2) I thought that it looked over braced, note I said thought but read on....

3) Drilling out the braces is not going to save much weight. I think that a typical set of spruce braces only weigh in the neighborhood of 40-50 grams any way. But maybe weight saving is not the intent, maybe tuned flexing is?

4) Thinking that it is over braced I noticed that the bridge plate is much like a Somogyi shape AND the top has 4 diamonds........ This says to me that this may be a very thin top, much thinner than most builders use.

Conclusion: We are looking at a master's highly optimized "system" where nothing is taken for granted. I would love to hear what a guitar with a top like this sounds like.

I'm not sure if he still does or not, but Jamie Kinscherff was doing something very very similar to that a while back. I don't have anything worth adding beyond that.

Nothing new under the sun.....Jamie Kinscherf has been doing this for years.

It's basically turning a solid brace into a truss, thereby eliminating a bunch of unneeded mass.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Dang James....you posted while I was typing and IM'ing with a friend...beat me to it!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Very nicely done, but it appears to be alot of work for little payback.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

This is hardly any work at all for a CNC, which is my guess as the how they are 90% made. The other 10% of course is voicing.

Kevin Ryan is an innovator, I've also seen Jamie Kinscherf's photo's of truss style braces. These maybe very similar but the placement of the braces is different indeed.

Hesh, I think you could be right about the thin top, just look at the sound hole edge, that sure looks thin to me, specially for a redwood top (or is that a cedar top, looks like redwood to me though).

One of the cool thing about Kevin and how he builds is that he rarely cares what the rest of the community say about his buildings style. I seem to remember hearing him say this about building with a true flat top (or some reference to true flat tops anyway) "If you want your guitars to sound like everyone else's, build them the same as everyone else".

Nice and clean of course. Maybe Peter M can shed some light on the sound for us, he's seems to be close to Kevin, at least in proximity if not friendship too.

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Gee! I think I would of charged!

Laser cut I'm sure! Considering his linings are lasered too, it makes sense, and there's a consistancy mimicing cnc laser! Once it's programmed, Bob's your uncle!

Whether it works or not is inconsequential! It looks cool!
Maybe we can get somebody to comment on the acoustic properties of leting the sound out less impeded!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Man I sure wish that I knew as much as some of you guys about geetars...... I am reminded of Barnes in Apocalypse Now when he says "What - y'all experts...." (note the grinning idiot emoticon please too)

Well I see some real genius here in Kevin's work. Regardless of the use of truss bracing prior don't you guys see where his braces peak and why that may be? He has the string path built like a brick dreadnought house from the neck block through the bridge area. Even the upper bout X-legs taper fairly radically a couple of inches from the rim. Clearly he is freeing up the sound board in the rim area.

Also note the intersections of finger braces and the X-brace - pared away to nearly nothing - should also permit the top to flex and pump.

It's entirely possible that just as Somogyi uses his braces and the mass that they have to transmit vibration that these diamonds are intended to place some mass in this location for reasons beyond being a stupid cleat and also beyond my understanding - but I am open to learning about it.......

As for marketing - if you are one of the best builders on the planet but unable to communicate this in lay person's terms you won't be selling or building very many guitars. Many of the top builders understand that marketing and even hype is important which has me believing that this is nothing to hold against a builder.

You guys are a tough room tonight.... geeze.....

I'm not so sure about that. Plus, if a customer is sold on the concept, it becomes a great upcharge item given that it's relatively easy to accomplish. Kevin and other full-time luthiers are trying to make a living, and every advantage over the competition is needed. Any features that can distinguish you from the crowd can also be a benefit to you. Not only is Kevin a genius at tooling, but he also finds some great ways of using his high-tech equipment to do things that set his work apart from the rest. Whether there is a real ton of acoustic advantage to having the trussed braces may not be the point........the perceived advantage may be the real deal. And if so....why not?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

IF anyone is interested, here´s a link to where he explaine about he bracing. and also some more photos
Personally, and from a laymans point of view, I would say like many of you, "if you want to sell a lot of guitars, its good to stand out from the rest. but then again, his guitars are being said to have a great sound ! although i havent heard or played one. have any of you played or listened to any of his guitars. ??.

http://www.ryanguitars.com/theworkshop/Building%20a%20Guitar/EOBracing.htm
http://www.ryanguitars.com/theguitars/Ordering/12%20String/Soundboard%20Bracing.htm

Don and I were just pointing out that Jamie Kinscherff has done something like this, too. You happened to point out that the bridge plate was similar to Somogyi's. His brace placement is also a mirror of Jim Olson's. Beyond those things, I just don't have much to add. I'm still wrapping my mind around the structure of a guitar top.

I've played them and like them. They're very nice and have a strong fundamental. Trebles seem to really come out. Different voice than an Olson. Not particularly the voice of a guitar that I prefer, but I respect them.

I have seen the braces being made on the Laser. Pretty cool stuff. At Kevin's nothing is done by chance without carefull trying and testing.
He did a fantastic job and the proof is in the results. Flawless guitars with amazing playability and sound.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Lars thanks for the links!!

The highlights that I just read are that this is for a 12 string. Kevin designed the bracing to be 30% stronger than his 6 string bracing and 20% lighter.

He also explains that the bridge plate profile is to to resist the additional rotational forces of the second course of strings.

Now that I know that this is his 12 string bracing its even more impressive to me.

A while back I came across the Kinscherff bracing system and saw some discussion here.
After getting really stoked up about doing a guitar braced in this manner, I decided against it because of the increase in surface area on the braces themselves. It just seemed like the opportunity for failure magnified itself with each new hole.

Nevertheless, I'd love to hear two (basically) identical instruments, one braced with, one without to hear the differences. It still intrigues me.

Here's a link to Mr. Kinscherff's site.
http://www.kinscherff.com/BracingSys.html

And here's a link to a similar thread from a few years ago
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4354&hilit=kinscherff+bracing

Dave

Looks very well done to me. A 12 string needs to handle about 30-35% more tension than a 6 string. From the pictures it looks like he has ample stiffness in the spots where the top wants to deform from bridge torque via string tension while leaving the rim compliant enough for good top movement, and all while keeping the bracing light. A gram here and there can certainly make a noticeable difference in tone if it's in the right place. I haven't played a Ryan guitar with this bracing, but I would expect it might sound quite good.

Thanks for the kinscherff link. really cool bracing to, I can see where he got his ideas from. !!

It would have been fun to see what both kinscherff and Ryans bracing weights !! compared to a similar sized "normal" guitars bracing !! to me, as they put the holes on there, the bracing seemd to be both highter and wider. so I wonder what they win in loss of mass ? .

Lars

It's a cool idea and makes sense. I was big into bike racing in my younger days and it reminds me of how in the 70's everyone drilled out their components to lighten them. There were a few catastrophic failures!! Sounds like Kevin and Jamie have done their homework though.
I'd love to hear one sometime.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Ah Don, you are right looking at it from a monetary point of view. In that case it would indeed have a bit of payback. Or maybe a lot. Very good marketing strategy.

I was just thinking that it wouldn't have much payback as far as sound or tone. It is a very cool concept indeed. I like the way he thinks and dreams.

_________________
"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

A mirror reflects the opposite side of what we are looking at, this would indicate Jim builds all lefty's

Just giving you a hard time James

I think you're saying that Kevin's brace placement is the same as Jim's. That's not the case either although there are some strong similarities. One thing that I notice about Kevin's brace layout and Jim's is that the finger braces and the lower tone bars run inline with eachother (mine to by the way). The other thing I notice about Kevin's brace layout that is very very similar to Jim's is the first lower tone bar peaks at the centerline of the guitar (or very close to the centerline, also mine too).

Admittedly for my guitars I've copied Jim Olson's bracing pattern and have done a bit of my own tweaking to the shape of the braces.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I once asked Charles Fox about the theory behind and purpose of his drilled out transverse brace. He said it is because when someone looks inside one of his guitars, they expect to see something different - nothing more. Sometimes we overthink why someone does something

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John Ressler

Thanks Rod. A laugh is a good way to start the morning!

I had thought about doing braces as trusses before and came to the conclusion that it makes sense up in the upper bout of the guitar as sound is not an issue, structure is.
In the tone bars though, do the sudden voids in the brace not interfere with the vibrational wave that the brace is transfering throughout the top? Just a thought, I don't know, you tell me.

davidO

I've built prototypes with this type or truss technology, the holes in various diameters and
the I beam style relief over the years and have liked the results with all three, but have never
decided to use any of the three as my default bracing.

I'm sure that Kevin has arrived at the dimensions for the bracing stock and for the shapes,
locations and sizes for the voids after nothing short of exhaustive R&D efforts and lots of detailed
measurement and documentation of many prototype efforts.

It's just the way Kevin does things since he will never offer anything that will detrimentally
affect a guitar's tone, playability, integrity or longevity before it's proven itself to him.

Kevin is not only one of the most innovative.....and not to mention brave....designers and builders
that has graced the acoustic guitar industry in the last century, but he's also happens to be one of
the most gracious, generous and conscientious individuals you're bound to find in any industry.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars