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Having been making mission reproduction for most of my life...on occasion I run across something that is simply one of a kind. I've had this billet laying around for a few years...and was just hanging on to it for whatever...and then I decided to make a guitar...and then someone said oak.....

If you all would be so kind....Please give your opinions regarding which pieces should be used for backs and which ones for sides. I have them placed in the photos to show my own idea. The two in the middle would be the bookmatched halves of the back...and the pieces on either side would be sides. Their current dimensions are not final but the sides should yield about 33.5 inches in length at whatever width I need (they are currently 8" wide). Everything just came off the saw..no sanding at all.

The backs should yield a total width of about 16.5" at it's widest point...and again I can cut them long if needed...for what I don't know...but anyway. Everything is .200 thou plus....

Here's the kicker...they are perfectly quartered, curly, and from the crotch of a fine tree that originated out of Northern Pennsylvania.

I'd also be interested in knowing how one might go about dealing with the decay pockets near the middle.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Boy that is really pretty stuff. Are you planning on selling some?

I would take that highly figured area for the center of the back. The sides could be plainer. Plain straight grain would help in the bending process, though oak bends pretty easily anyway. Depending on how bad those decay pockets are, I would be tempted to try to stabalize them with thin superglue, perhaps even to reinforce them internally with a thin veneer, because they do add a lot of character to the back.

John

You know I wondered if I could stabilize those pockets with thin CA. It would probably wick all the way thru. I am going to test a cutoff some time this week and see.

As too selling...this is all I have. The billet made just enough for a back and sides.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

This is interesting...have not heard much on the use of oak in guitars. Please post progress pics. I like the idea of an internal veneer to stabilize. Save the decay. Could add a lot of character. But what can you use to level off the surface of the decay? Thick CA?

Mike

That is some really cool looking Oak. The best test of stability is watch how it acts with changes in humidity after it is sawn. This is where having wood in a perfectly stable storage area can be a double edge sword(good for building, but not a very realistic look at how the wood will act under more natural changes in humidity). It is also good to see if the change in the balance of tensions in the wood show any wacky movement. As far as the structural integrity, you really have to use your judgement because we can't check the wood. If it has mildly weak areas, reinforcment and or treating the wood with CA or thin epoxy may work out. If you notice the wood is cracking or there are signs of shake I would not fight that(often if these are appearant, the wood is likely to have many small fractures, and other issues). When I have a board that shows an area that has issues that look problematic, I cut away wood until it looks clear and solid. You are better off doing that and then decide on what the board will yeild(sides, backs, fretboards, binding...???). All part of the losses and risk with boards you hear resawers yaping about. Also, Lay out your back and side patterns, and cut to that layout. There is a HUGE amount of waste in cutting to generic(full sized rectangular) blanks.

Have fun, and get some nice sets out of that great looking wood.
Rich

Wood from a tree crotch grows under stress and is unstable, prone to checking. Plus it has areas of rot. It is visually special, but may not be good for acoustic guitar building.

Oak (usually white oak) was used quite a bit for parlor guitars 100 years ago, but fell into disfavor. It is reputed to have higher damping than most popular back and side woods, and the pores are hard to fill.

My suggestion, which is one you probably don't want to hear, is to use it for drop tops on electric guitars.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Thanks to all for the input. I have it inside the house right now stacked and weighted down. The weather here in Florida right now is real crappy...rain all the time...lots of humidity. My shop is not climate controlled. The billet stayed out there for it's entire life....However I may not know of it's true nature until a few days here in the house. It is white oak, which is a little more stable than it's red cousin.

Time will tell. I have to finish my first guitar before I even think of building with this wood. If there are any other ideas please let me know....short of..."Hey I got an idea...send it to me!"

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

That wood is gorgeous. I want to build a quarter sawn white oak guitar now. I love the look of mission style furniture. I built a parlor guitar with crotch cherry. It acted real crazy before I got the parts glued together. I truly expected it to fail, but after about 5 years, it is fine. I think the smaller size contributed to its success. I would be cautious with a standard size guitar - but go for it. See what you can learn from it and report back. (Or you can give me the wood and I will build a guitar with it and I'll tell you what I think!!

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John Ressler

I am with Howard on this one .. building an acoustic with crotch wood is a 50/50 proposition .. it may crack/warp/ripple ... it may not. I would save it for a drop top electric.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Yes i agree with howard and tony on this.
have any you seen an old crotch walnut/mahogany/anything table that hasent got checks in it after a few years.

i have some croth mahogany boards that i have had for years and every one has checks running up the center of the crotch figure.
i was also looking at some crotch walnut boards this very weekend with the same problem.

this would make me wary about using it and in fact i rejected the boards for that very reason.
It may work for a solid body cap though.

Looks very pretty though,

Joel.

I'll have to take all of this into consideration...I have seen the checking and such everyone is referring too.

Got an idea....what if I were to cut a portion of the crotch's out and make a 4 piece back? I am not that good with modifying photos...Maybe Hesh or someone can jump in and remake the appropriate photo and post....just brainstorming...

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

What if I just reversed the set for the back of the guitar?....Like this...

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Sorry Snig buddy I didn't see this earlier but looks like you got it covered.

There's only one way to find out and before forums, I used to do things which since I've been told weren't doable, were wrong or unadvisable! A few failures which I learn more from, but do what you feel you must, it's sooooo pretty though!

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Beautiful Oak Snig!

Feel free to bring it out for a look if you want to. It is hard to tell how the wood feels, and I go on feel more than anything else these days. I would love to have a closer look at it.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I restored an old Lyon Healy parlor with white oak back and sides. It has great quartered figure and sounds like mahogany in my opinion. It's 80 to 90 years old and that might contribute to the woody sound, but it booms for a little body. I have been looking for the right piece of oak for a while and will build a small guitar when I find it.

Good luck,

middas

This stuff is awesome in appearance. It deserves t be used in a fine end table or writing desk. But like Howard said to risky in my opinion for a guitar. Sure is gorgeous though.

As Howard mentioned, the crotch of a tree(or near large limbs or what have you) often holds a fair bit of reaction wood. The larger the load placed on these parts of the tree the more problematic this becomes. The grain orientation also becomes wacky and less desirable. If you are going to select a bit of wood that is ideally structured and stable this is not the place to look. Then again curly wood is a poor choice in terms of stability and structure. The often extream difference in density between sap wood and heart wood is potentially problematic. Spalt,Burls, well knuff said. If you are going to consider a piece that is less desirable in the structural, and dimensional stability sense, in favor of figure or looks(which people do regularly). Then you need to evalute the piece closely, and understand the balance of risks for looks. That is a hard thing to evaluate looking at a picture, and not knowing what you have in from of you. How much risk is acceptable for a look is also a variable that only the person who is building can define.

You need to examine the piece of wood to determine how strong the variance in the reaction wood is. This differing density will lead to different shrinkage and expansion rates. You need to look at the grain, and what it is doing, this may clue you in as to how much the orientation could play a role in odd shrinkage and expansion variations. Then a bit of a no brainer, what it actually does as humidity effects moisture levels will actually show you what is happening(kinda takes the guess work out of it all).

Then cracking potential, Large variation in density of wood found in areas of strong reaction wood will often lead to damage(through focused stress and odd rates of volumetric change). Very often these areas already have noticable cracking and checking from the drying process. Then you have rot, which may be minor, but is obviously a problem as it has damaged the structure of the wood. How much rot is present, how far the rot has damaged the wood has to be evaluted. It is very hard to evaluate from a picture, because you may have discolorations from some type of staining or natural coloration(minerals or what have you).

Now if some of the areas look unsuitable, yet other areas seem like they are acceptably risk for the look. Then you can evaluate and get a good luck with your patterns on the wood.

It is best to use clear, straight grain cuts of wood from a functional standpoint. There are a lot of exceptions taken to using the most ideal woods in favor of looks. If you do choose to compramise for looks. Try to make a solid evaluation of the material, so that you know what your getting into.

I also agree with Howard also that looking at the picture, it looks pretty risky. Since I can't evalute the wood in person, I will just offer what I know to look for that will certainly lead to failures. It is similar to using curly redwood for soundboards. There are risks and structural downsides. No way it could be argued the wood is ideal, but people use it for the look, and seem to find the performance is acceptable(even good), by the same token some would never use it as well as some have had failures and will never use it again. Curly wood for sides. It is more delicate to bend(weaker, and full of runnout), yet it is used(frequently). Acceptable risk is a personal choice, hopefully an edjucated one.

Rich

I can't predict what would happen if you use this wood as guitar backs, but I can tell you these two things: First, I personally prefer the way it looks when you orient the crotch figure along the center line, and, Second, I built a classical with a crotch figured walnut back--perfectly quartered--about fifteen years ago, and after a couple of years it developed a sort of ripple effect across the area with the most pronounced figure. The wood and finish still look beautiful and the sound is darn good, but the surface has ripples which are made all the more obvious by the glossy finish on the instrument. So...it's a risk and a toss up. The guitar I'm describing is my personal instrument, and I can live with it. If you think you can live with the risk, then I say "go for it." If not, then don't risk it. And if you find a fool proof way to stabilize crotch figure, please let us all know.

As an afterthought, I will say that I enjoy shooting shotguns, and some of the most beautiful shotguns I have ever seen have crotch figured walnut stocks. I have NEVER seen this ripple effect in a shotgun stock. Even in stocks that are many decades old. What's up with that? Do you guys think it is related to the thickness (or should I say thinness) of the wood in our guitar backs?

I think you should let it lie around for a few years and see what happens before you build with it. By then you should know if it will warp or check. Though it looks nicer on the inside I think the crotch should be on the outside where it will get more support from the linings. Then there shouldn't be a rot issue either.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

It'll be a solid year before I get to it. I haven't even finished my first guitar yet. It's hard to get to when my summer's are so busy. I've lost 7lbs in the last 2 days from just working. Happens every year.

The wood is in the house so we'll get to see what happens with it. The only other thing I might do with it in the meantime is run it through the sander and get some of the saw marks off.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.