Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Everyone,
The idea of building my very own acoustic guitar has been one that
has haunted me for the last few years. I've spent many hours learning about wood
types, looking at custom inlays, etc...

It is simply something I admire, and would love to do myself.

But, here is the thing. I don't know if I'm being realistic about building an acoustic guitar
at this point in my life. Maybe it would be better for me to just buy. Let me elaborate:

I am very keen on fine woods and eloquent design, something available primarily in extremely high end guitars which
I cannot afford right now.
I'm not a skilled woodworker, though I learn quickly and take my time.
I have someone to help guide me who is more experienced with woodworking.

Most importantly, am I really being realistic that I would be able to create a guitar that meets a decent standard on
my first try? Because I don't have enough money to "build to learn". It has to be playable, or I'll be a sad panda. And
not like, $100 fender playable for 4 times the cost.

What advice would you give someone in my position? Build now, slowly but surely with the expectation of a reasonable end result, or buy, learn little by little down the line and realize my dream of a hand crafted guitar down the road??

Thank you in advance for your advice.

-Daniel

Daniel welcome to the OLF!

Lots of folks get into guitar building primarily motivated by the idea of building, playing, and owning their own dream guitar. Are they successful - sometimes but not always. I think that it is pretty rare that those who build only one are indeed completely satisfied and are happy to live this this one guitar forever more.

Realistically there are lots of costs for special tools, jigs, and the things that we use to build guitars. If you amortize these costs over just one guitar your dream guitar, built by you, may be much more expensive than you might think.

A quality guitar kit with good documentation will do wonders to help ensure your success but again you will need to purchase some tools and perhaps build some jigs.

Everyone is different but it took me a number of guitars before I built one that I could live with.

So my advice to you, which will be the first time that I have not just blindly encouraged someone to jump into guitar building, is if your intent is to only build one, spend very little, and emerge with a dream guitar with excellent sound and playability although some can pull this off I think that it is unlikely that most could.

Perhaps seek out an course at a community college as an introduction for you as to what to expect and then make up your own mind. Also, you can download the free PDF guitar kit instructions from Stew-Mac (a link is above) and read what it takes to build the kit and also note the recommended tools list. Tally all this up as an estimate of associated costs.

Above all if you do decide to proceed know that we will be very happy to help you every step of the way.

Welcome aboard!

Hey Daniel, welcome to the OLF! I think that I would seriously look at a kit from one of our fine sponsors. Most anyone with reasonable intelegence and patience should be able to do it. And it should work out to be very playable. Go for it if the kit prices are within reach.
Donovan

Beat by Hesh! You haunt me Hesh!

We all dream of building our "dream guitar". Don't expect a masterpiece first time out. The kit is a great way to start. Minimal tool investment, the pieces will fit and you get the joy of creating your own guitar.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

With my very best latino gang accent....

"Justdoiiiiiiiiitttttttt!!!!"

2 feet first......

BTW...How does Hesh do that anyway?

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

As a general rule, if your goals in building your first guitar include ending up with a better instrument than what the same money could buy (not even considering your time), that's quite a long shot. Between tools and materials, you can expect to spend a bit of money, and the end results in 99% of cases will not be as good as what the same money could buy off the shelf.

If you want to build because you want to learn the craft, then it could be much more rewarding. Take your time, listen and learn, don't expect your first 2 or 3 instruments to be great, and don't expect them to be cheap. Building your own to save money though, is not a realistic strategy.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

The tool outlay can be expensive, if your not in it for the long run. And the mistakes you could end up making. Alot of luthiers are "high end"- College educated, engineering degrees, you would be surprised. Being technical can really help.

I would say try to find a real good guitar if you can't invest the time and money, and do not already have a love of wood and tools and spending lots of time figuring all this stuff out..

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I'm finishing up #6 but my main playing guitar is my first build. I was an experienced woodworker with a shop full of tools, but I still spent about 8 months building jigs and guitar specific tools before I started. You can do it. My first took about 6 months because I wanted it to be so good. I would study up and plan out the next step and do that step, then I studied for the next step. It turned out great in my eyes. The finish isn't much but it sounds and plays better than I'd hoped for.

My suggestion would be to build the first strictly as a learning experience. Get cheap wood, like oak, walnut or cherry and start laying it out. Those woods can be found anywhere, they are cheap, they make really, really good sounding guitars. That being said, it will still cost several hundred to build. If you have to buy power tools it will cost several thousand.

If you believe in your ability, go for it. If not, start with one of the serviced kits.

And, welcome to the forum.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Daniel, if you are only going to build one, I would steer you away from everyone's advice for a kit and suggest that you go to a hands on course such as one of the two week courses at the American School of Lutherie. There are other courses around, I used them because I know the url. Seriously though, if you are only looking to make one guitar, working with a master makes more sense, especially if this is a one shot kind of deal.

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Aoibeann

Hi Daniel,

Lillian's advice, while not the cheapest way to get a great guitar, would increase your odds drastically.

One successful musician that followed that advice was Jim Earp, who attended Bozo Podunavac's School of Letherie, and built just one guitar. You can hear the guitar on Jim's recordings, and it sounds wonderful. OK, Jim could probably make a Wal-Mort special sound good, but the point is that he built just one guitar and he records with it.

(The link is to an older interview, but it has links to Guitar Nine Records, where you can hear samples. By the way, I highly recommend "Smiles to Go" and "Rosewood" as great fingerstyle guitar CDs.)

If your dream is to own one great guitar, your only sure bet is to find a great guitar already built that happens to meet your aesthetic criteria, or find a luthier that you respect their work and have one made for you. For roughly the same amount of money, you could probably find a luthier school, and you'd pay for hands-on instruction and not have to buy any tools. Despite the folks that will tell you that you can build a guitar with a hammer and chisel, or a Swiss Army knife, or a broken beer bottle, the truth is that you would probably buy hundreds of dollars worth of tools to try to assure yourself greater control and a greater chance of success. I think that's realistic; YMMV.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Hi All,

My first post on your forum, but I felt I could share my experience with Daniel.

I was in a similar situation about this time last year. I own a number of electrics, but the only acoustics I owned were a 30 year old Ibanez and a Baby Taylor. I had always wanted to pick up a better acoustic but kept holding off as I thought building one would be very cool. Unlike you, I do have a lot of years of woodworking experience as well as a pretty well equipped shop, so perhaps the jump was more natural for me.

I started doing a little research and by fall had picked up a quilted mahogany OMC kit, a book, a DVD, and a few guitar specific tools I didn't already own. Once snow started falling in Michigan, I started working on the guitar. By February I had it pretty much ready to spray but had to wait until my garage warmed up enough. I finally got it done around the mid-May.

The guitar turned out fantastic! Like you, my concern going into the project was whether I would end up with something comparable to a cheap Fender or Ibanez or would I get something that rivaled a $2000 Martin. The guitar is much closer to the $2000 Martin than it is a $300 Ibanez. The guitar has gotten many compliments from luthiers as well as musicians. So, it can be done.

Lessons learned:
- Definately start with a kit. You can purchase a kit with varying amounts of pre-work done. My first one had a number of tasks completed already. My next one leaves much more for me.
- I ended up buying more tools than I was expecting to buy going into the project. I rationalized this by telling myself I would build more than one And I am now on number two.
- I read up more on this project than any other furniture project I have ever jumped into. Seemed I spent more time on the internet and in books than actually building.
- Find a luthier who you trust to help you through the tricker stuff. I had a great resource, which really helped.
- Experience is invaluable. My guitar turned out very nice and on a cursory inspection would look perfect to probably anyone but an experienced eye, but it does have a few minor issues. Despite my desire to craft the perfect guitar, reading, and taking my time, I just lacked the luthier experience to get it there.

I say to jump in and build one. If you are concerned about your abilities, get a quality kit with some of the trickier tasks completed already (sides bent, neck shaped, fretboard slotted, front and back joined, and rosette cut). I would then build per the plans, using the best craftsmanship you can, and you should end up with a quality instrument that you would much rather own than anything you could purchase for less than a grand.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Daniel,
I once read a quote that has stuck with me in my building for years.

Paraphrased

"The difference between a student builder and a master is that a student has yet to figure out how to make but a few mistakes and is still learning how to over come the few he has made. A master has made them all and knows to avoid them"

I too suggest that you start with a serviced kit and minimal tools. Don’t plan on any ornate inlay and choose reliable easy to work with tone woods. This has the best chance to render a quality instrument from a first attempt.

Skill is never really learned. It is developed with time and dedication. There is so much more to building a quality instrument than the nuts and bolts of how to assemble one that you could spend a lifetime just reading on the subject and never really conceive the physics of what you have read.

That said if you follow basic guidelines and proven kit and plans you stand a good chance of building an instrument that you will cherish for a life time.

So you see it is really up to you to decide if you wish to commit a couple months of your spare time and a few hundred dollars of your hard earned money on a venture that is totally dependent on your dedication and persistence for success.

Anyway things turn out, I promise you will learn much about yourself that you never knew.

Daniel,

My first build was a Blues Creek 14 fret Martin style 000. I owned a very limited cache of tools and had zero knowledge of wood working. Four months later with the help of John Hall (great support), John Kinkead's book, and a whole lot of questions here on the OLF I had a nice little guitar. In fact I sold my Taylor 510CE a few months later as I never took it out of the case after the "000" came to be.

I guess my point is to go for it and pray you don't catch the building bug as there is NO CURE!

Good Luck!

Ray

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

I know Hesh hit it on the nose. Tools, jigs, and so on. At times it seems endless. In fact, I think I have become more of a jig maker than a guitar builder. But, then, I plan on building quite a few. Those "one off kits" you see out there are great! And Stew Mac will do many services for you. But to expect the final cost to be less than the manufacture cost is prolly not realistic. Unless you are talking about some very high end manufactured guitar.

If you can take a course somewhere where you build the whole guitar, that will be your most efficient path.

Mike

True Mike but think of it this way you invest say $500 in a kit and $200 in minimum tools and consumables. You have the ability to produce a solid wood guitar to your given spec. Even a first timer; if they take their time seek the help needed and stay focused can produce a better instrument that you can buy for $700. I know this does not account for building skill but the builder must know this going in.

Michael bro I have to beg to differ. $700 is a very low estimate IMHO. Consider this AND consider the lack of tools that the poster indicted is their situation.

$425 Stew-Mac kit
100 laminate trimmer
100 bit set
75 fretting tools
50 couple of chisels
25 world's crappiest tuners
180 radius dishes (sure they can be made but what is the router going to cost to make them.....)
100 outside mold (same deal here, can be made but you need a band saw.......)
50 reamer
30 glues
20 sand paper
14,000.00 divorce.....

Anyway I think that you can see my point and I have left many things out. The goal here, as stated, is not "a" guitar it is a "dream" guitar.

And what about Rick? Remember how Rick pounded us about the idea that if we did not learn how to do a proper, quality set-up we are just producing GLOs (guitar like objects). After I got over being pissed off I realized that Rick was right. So how does one learn how to do a proper set-up? Perhaps a practice guitar or multiple builds or a mentor or, or, or. Anyway do you really think that a first times builder with limited or no woodworking experience and no tools is capable of producing a well set-up guitar the very first time? I don't.

I have never, never discouraged anyone from building and in fact I think that most would agree that I am a fairly encouraging trouble maker in terms of helping folks get addicted to guitar building.....

But the way this question is being asked, the budget, no experience, no tools, AND the desire to build not just a guitar but a dream guitar I don't see it. And in all honesty I don't want to ever be intentionally misleading if I believe that something is not likely.

And of course some can and will pull it off (welcome to the OLF Ken buddy! ) but my point was that most won't.

If the question was asked in the context of building a "decent" guitar and not exceeding the cost of say a D-18 I would have been the most positive guy in the world.

$425 Stew-Mac kit
100 laminate trimmer-- 25 harbor freight
100 bit set--15 Wal-Mart cheap but will get you first built
75 fretting tools 10 dead blow hammer
50 couple of chisels-- 20 for a cheap starter set
25 world's crappiest tuners—comes with most kits
180 radius dishes (sure they can be made but what is the router going to cost to make them.....)--not needed as shims under cardboard will work see Stew Mac instruction
100 outside mold (same deal here, can be made but you need a band saw.......) here again see Stew Mac instructions for a good inexpensive (dang near free) alternative to a mold
50 reamer not absolutely needed
30 glues 12 for a bottle of Titebond
20 sand paper I concede this one

remember I said minimum tools

Are you being realistic? I'd say yes if your patient, I'm not a woodworker but am into metal work I've picked up planes for £1 and chisels for £0.20 combination sharpening stone £0.2o and a worn arkansas stone £0.50 all at boot fairs. The mold can be cut out with a fret or coping saw, lets face it if it's a one of cut it out of card and stack up layers until the right dimension and varnish it. I've been lucky in the respect that I know people I bought Kinkheads book and was reading it at my folk club the following week a guy came in with mahogany for the back and sides he'd run it through his thicknesser so was near to size ok it isn't bookmatched but it'll do for a first build, I bought the cheapest top I could £7.50 swiss spruce third quality, pine molding for the braces and titebond is all I've bought.

I made the rosette from scraps off the back joined together, my mold is old kitchen worktops and 4"x2" cut and sanded to shape so no cost there. Tomorrow I'll bend the sides I'll use a hot air gun and some tube I've got, so again no cost. My head and tail blocks are some oak I scrounged. The luthier I use has given me so much free advice over the phone that I took him a bottle of wine as a thank you, and ended up leaving with 2 classical one with a bridge that needs regluing and another with a smashed top he said I could practice repairs on them, and also gave me the rosewood for the fingerboard he said a friend gave it to him and it wasn't good enough for one of his custom build but would be ideal for me!

I can say if you thrifty and know some woodworkers you'll do it cheaply at the moment I'm upto £10 on wood £30 tools so say $75 and am enjoying stumbling on my way. Dunno why but I keep putting off making my bracing templates though once the sides are bent I'll probably make the neck.

Just think your way around your lack of tools, thats not the problem you just need enough enthusiasm to carry you through the project!

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Thanks MichaelP.

I kept pretty close track of the costs of my OMC. I spent $670 for the materials that went into the guitar, including the Fishman Natural I pickup. I also dropped over $900 on tools. Bear in mind, I already owned a drill press, laminate trimmer, drill press, scrapers, planes, and most of the big stuff. Almost all of my tool purchases were luthier specific with many items costing less than fifty bucks a pop, but they add up quickly. Just the C inlay in my headstock cost me about $150 by the time I got the air grinder, base, jeweler saw, blades, and inlay material. Fretting was another $100. So yea if I add all the tool costs to my single guitar, we are looking at close to a $1,600 guitar just in materials and tools, and forget about the labor.

Is my guitar worth $1,600? Maybe. But the big question is now that it is done, would I have rather spent the $1,600 on a Martin OMC? Absolutely not!! I love my guitar, and I can't keep my hands off it! The sound is wonderful, and when I pick it up and play it, I appreciate all the work that went into getting it where it is, making it that much more special to me. I have built many pieces of furniture, both big and small over the years, but this guitar is probably the most satisfying.

I really doubt someone with few tools can get a well constructed, nicely finished "dream" guitar without dropping some money, likely more than I did. For those willing to do that, a very good guitar is within reach. But it won't happen with a $500 budget. And it also likely won't happen with the first guitar. My "dream" guitar is yet to be built

Ken
http://www.casperfamily.net/misc/omc/qm_omc.jpg

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Whew.... now I feel enabled and validated...... Thanks Ken!

Michael my friend -

Check out Stew-Mac's recommended tools and supplies list for their dread kit..... Although I don't agree with some of the things here I do agree with many of the things listed.

Total all of this up and well you could have bought a gallon of gas.......

to be sure I do not suggest that minimum tools is the way to go. but it is doable. I was doing a long work project in Georgia when I built my first kit 1000 miles from my home and tools many years ago. I use common cheap tool and followed StewMacs instruction manual. All the braces were preshaped sides bent and tuner holes pre drilled, The Stewmac kit is basically an assembly kit very little to do but assemble and the kit is complete. All turned fine. No it would not live up to my standards now but I played regularly it up till it was stolen last month.

Now for the reality check It will not be your dream guitar. It will be the fruit of your own labor and can mean a lot

There is no feeling I know that is the same as playing the guitar you just built. Maybe seeing someone else play it and see in their face that they like what they are playing. You can do what you want to do. I built mine from scratch. It is not a masterpiece, but came out pretty well, and it sounds great. It was, however, a classical, whatever difference that might make. It is certainly better than any guitar I have ever owned, and most I have ever played, with a few exceptions, Hauser Sr,'67 Ramirez, M. Rodriguez, Gilbert, and a couple of others. And, if you have some skills and confidence in your capabilities, you can do it.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hesh, you are a riot (14K divorce)

I am not sure if the OP is asking about cost, effort, or final result. It seems he was asking about all three. I think his question is a common one. You see the kit and think, "Oh, I can just build this J40 for half the price! Yes, Stew Mac does a good job of putting that to rest. Not so with Martin Kits.

Daniel, you must decide what the priority is. Are you in this for a one-off experience? Fine. For a highend model (say, J40) you will be lucky to break even. For the $$, you will have a fine guitar (if you are patient) and an excellent experience, plus the ability to tell all that YOU built it. You will also own some cool tools and jigs. Maybe later you will decide to build another and your build costs will be fixed. You need a mold, lots of clamps, big and small (and smaller). At minimum, a dremel (...sigh, I know). Palm sander. Lamininate trimmer. Jig for the trimmer. Bearings and a bit for the trimmer. Buy a HIGHLY serviced kit. Oh, chisels. Back saws. Did I mention clamps? You can make some one-off go-bars out of dowels.

But, I say go for it! It's fun! Just spread the investment out over time. I am not trying to discourage you. Just get the stuff and start building (mold & kit). When you get to a point where you cannot move on without a tool... do not improvise, get on the list and ask for advice. That way you won't mess her up. You will be surpised how far you can get before the specialized stuff starts becoming important.

Mike

Hesh, I see you are just down the road from me. I am in Northville. Seem to be a fair amount of luthiers in this part of the country. Must be those long, cold winters!

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com