Official Luthiers Forum!

Ashamed to admit to this but long ago, in the days of my youth and inexperience, I cooked my only acoustic at the time - a shallow bowl Applause AE-38.

Top bellied and perhaps some separation of top and bracing has occurred.

The guitar was cheap to begin with, but I had fun with it.

I'm not a luthier - the only guitar work I've done is install a K+K mini pure western in my Larrivee.

I'm thinking of repairing this guitar; but I don't know what it takes to remove the top from the bowl/binding.

Anyone here removed the top of an Ovation or Applause? How is it attached, etc.? Is it something I can do without a full set of luthier tools - my dad has a fairly complete woodworking shop.

Thanks for any advice you can provide to this newbie.

-Scott

You could try one of these:

Seriously welcome to the OLF Scott

I am sure that someone who knows what they are talking about, since I don't...., will be along shortly to help you.

Not worth the effort, the adhisive used to glue the FB to the neck and top are nasty and sovents for them are not available to the consumer market the neck is not easly removable either you will spend too much to get the job done on a chep guitar.

Well, if it is cheap and useless as it is, then lets experiment. Cut most of the top off, leaving the edge intact (binding). Cut around the fret board. Sort of like opening a tin can? Preserve as much of the top as possible... when you build a new one you can use copy the bracing pattern (or better yet, use a better pattern). OR, use the williams jig & router to do this?????

Use chisels to remove wood under the fret board. Would it not be easy now to remove the neck from the plastic side? Or is that too nastily glued?

Put the body in a williams jig, and rout off the binding. Now build a new top out of fine materials and reverse the process.

Of course, check with others, I am prolly FOS here, but this does sound like a fun project. And the new top and bracing will surely cost more than the orginal guitar. Who knows, could inspire you into the luthier hobby.

Mike

Trying to repair an Ovation will probably convince him that this craft is very difficult and the results are not worth the effort.

Mikey my friend how are you going to clamp an Ovation's toilet shaped bowl in a William's jig without it trying to pop out like Keith Partridge's hair?

I have told this story before but several years ago I had a burnd ballader in house for possiple repair. Not knowing the adhisive used I called Ovation and talked with a techie there. He informed me that when they get an warrenty repair in shop they replace the whole guitar because the problems removing the components are not worh the time. He also told me the adhisives require very toxic sovents to work with . How much truth there was to this I never tested but I know the Applause series since Kaman took over Ovation and aquired Applause have gone to a neck attachment that is a kin to a chemical weld at the neck block as apposed to the lag bolt and adhesive they once used. This process is great for manufacturing but never meant for repair.

If you cut the top off you will ruin a lot of its value as a cool planter.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hesh, I was thinking that exact thing before I scrolled down and saw your post!

_________________
Brad Tucker

Well I guess I should answer the few of the questions you asked directly, though I find your prospects of success limited at best.

The top is glued to the linings (ABS) with a specialized plastic adhesive as are the bindings to the shell. the bindings are ABS and easily routed off using a laminate router and a bearing guide to control how far into the shell the bit routs and the depth adjustment on the router base to control the depth of the cut.

The fretboard is glued down to the top with an industrial adhesive that requires an industrial solvent to work with. Heat is not going to break the bond. Furthermore The neck (ABS) is pretty much chemically welded into the neck block with this industrial adhesive so you will not be able to get the neck out of the way.

As others have said once you routed the binding off you can rout the top free of the lining or break the top out and sand down to the lining. You will not be able to separate the top from the lining in a normal manner (heat and a seam knife) as to apply enough heat to soften the adhesive they use will likely result in melting the linings.

This project is doable but will take a lot of work and force some abnormal processes to pull off. The big problem is the removal of the fretboard from both the top and the neck and the fact the neck will not likely be removable from the shell and will be in the way of trimming the top flush to the linings in a single process and also in rebinding.

Sorry to tell you but, Kaman intentionally designed both the newer (1980+) Ovations and Applause to be use and replace instruments. They do almost no warrenty repair out side of bridge, nut-saddle and tuner replacement. They just throw an new one in the case and ship it.

Then there is the issue of stabilizing the bowl during any machining (power tool) processes or clamping processes. You pretty much will need to fabricate a special vacuum mold to hold the body steady as you work so that you leave the top 1"-1-1/2” clear for your router and such.

With out being overly pessimistic this not likely to go well for you with out a lot of plastics manufacturing experience. But like I said It can be done but is it worth it. For Time and material you will invest can buy a new one or find a used on in a pawn shop for $60 bucks

I "removed" the top of an Applause many years ago...

I was in the Army at the time, stationed up in the very north of my country, next to the Russian (Soviet at the time) border. This is so far north of the arctic circle that the sun is gone for a long time during the middle of the winter, and I had promised my buddies that the first day we saw the sun again, I would run out to the middle of the parade ground and play "Here Comes the Sun" (what was I thinking?). So finally, one fine day in February the sun finally showed up over the horizon, and I grabbed my Applause and ran out, capo on the 7th fret, started on the familiar intro and CRACK ... part of the top let go of the bowl! It was probably 35 C degrees below zero outside, and the room where the guitar and I had been a few minutes before were nice and warm, so the shock was more than the poor guitar could take. Anyways, I got more applause for that episode than ever before with that particular instrument Never bothered to fix it though, I think I traded it for a Yamaha 12 string, so not a bad deal all in all.

If nothing else will work, you could always try that!

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

temp shock?????? That may work!!!! But the question is on what will come loose might try liquid nitrogen

I'm waiting for either a pic of a chainsaw or the banjo mute.

_________________
Brad Tucker

Granted, but I'm just trying to help the guy along. If it is worthless now, then playing with it won't hurt.

I have NO idea how one would mount in a WJ, but it would be fun to try. OP, send it to me. I will get the top off or die trying.

Mike

MichaelP,
Kaman never "took over" Ovation. Chuck Kaman started Ovation and has owned both it and Applause (its overseas producer
of lower end models) from day one of their existence. I spent time in the Kaman plant in Bloomfield back in the 80s and got to see loads of very cool manufacturing techniques for both guitars and aircraft.


Concerning the repair......

You can't rout the binding off of an Applause or Ovation to remove the top. The binding is and extruded piece that
not only serves as the binding around the top, but also serves as the gluing interface between the top and the bowl
that is the back.

The top is not glued to the bowl, but only to this gluing interface piece. If you rout it off, you will have no glue surface.
The best way to remove it is to cut the top off with a router following the perimeter around the body and around the fingerboard tongue. From there you can work your way out to the binding moving carefully closer with each pass. Once you've cleared the top from the binding ledge, you can clean that ledge out using a chisel, but will find yourself doing more chipping the scooping with it.

In the past when I've worked on them, I've removed the fret where the body and neck meet and then cut through the fingerboard to remove the tongue. I then used a 6"x36" or 6"X48" belt sander to remove the top material from the underside of the fingerboard
tongue being careful not to get into the fingerboard itself.

If your model has that Ovation style rosette ring that is glued around the soundhole, you can use your imagination to remove the top material from the underside of it and reglue it. Be careful as to not hit the underside of that ring bacause it is easily damaged or destroyed by a strike of a chisel from the rear. Otherwise, you can replace the top woth one that has a standard style inlaid rosette in it.

You'll have to get creative while clamping the new top in place since the bowl back doesn't provide a square structure for clamps to span and apply pressure off of. There are two options that I can think of, but both really require that you cinstruct some sort of shape maintaining caul to hold the bowl in its original perimeter shape.

Once the top is cut off and the two bolts are removed to allow the neck to come off, the bowl will flex open significantly. It's best to make a caul to hold the shape before you do any of the top or neck removal. I used a vacuum system to clamp the new tops on, but you can get it done using a backing board to simulate a typical flat back that the shape maintaining caul pieces can, be fastened to.

Once the new top is in place, the fingerboard tongue can be glued back in place using an epoxy. Once it has set up, the fret slot can be replaced and epoxied in as well, leveled and crowned to match the plain of the string path. The bridge, from which the top material has been removed and the two bolts that may hold it down have been saved, can then be glued to the new top in its proper location and...Voila!...you're ready for strings and that great Applause tone and playability again.

It's just that simple. I was familiar with the construction of the Applause and Ovation guitars from time spent in the Bloomfield plant with Chuck Kaman and the folks there back in the day, so the whole process...including making the caul.....took me less than three hours. Is it a repair that I would do today? Absolutely not since the guitar is just not worth it, in my opinion.


Chuck Kaman's story is very similar to that of Matt McPherson today. He had a very successful business already generating huge revenue and carried his ideas...with his revenue...over into the guitar industry. Chuck Kaman had Kaman Aircraft, his helicopter design and manufacturing plant and Matt McPherson had his hugely successful Fortune 500 listed Matthews Archery Company. Both had huge cash resources and an interest in music and musical instruments and were able to create a large presence for themselves in the music industry.

Thought I'd share that bit of trivia for those who hadn't heard those two great stories of success. People sometimes assume that these companies just popped up out of nowhere, but they had huge resource pools and deeply established business power behind them right from their inceptions. God people doing good things in both cases.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Sounds like you have the answer...

Mike

Wow this is totally differnent than the picture the Ovation tech described to me and I know my Ballader has a 3/8" thick x 1/2' tall ABS lining agist the bowl that the top is glued to but it may be part of the bowl and the binding extrusion may attach to it some how.

interesting stuff non the less

I called Ovation about a year ago about toxic glue fumes killing me, my dog and half the nieghbors rumors and was told they use nothing but epoxy, and I got the Ovation "trash and replace" protocol too!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Does anybody know how thick a top finish is applied to an Abomovation? The one I have looks like about .050 thick! I've heard reported that if the finish is removed and a proper one replaces it that the guitar, "really opens up". I suspect that's true after seeing this one.

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)