Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh,

You get what you pay for, for the most part, when it comes to contractors vs cabinet saws.

I would love to have a big old Powermatic sitting in my shop. I don't have one, but what I do have is a Jet contractor's model. I am extremely happy with it and it does what I want. When I set it up new, I set a nickel on edge on the table, and it sat there with the saw running. Got the saw on clearance at Lowes. It was what I could afford at the time, I also made a router table between the rails.

I will eventually get a shop fox or beismeyer fence to go on it though.

If you have the big bucks, go for one of the bigguns.

Some of the cabinet saw folks here can tell you about dust collection, but my contractor's saw sucks at great dust collection because of an open back, and a zero clearance plate.

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Brad Tucker

I have an older Deta Unisaw (as I was telling you the other day) and I love it.

As someone else already has said, safty is in your head. Just because you can buy one tool that has a built in saftly stop (Saw stop) doesn't mean that you can't cut your fingers off on your bandsaw or such your shirt in from a router or sand half your finger off in you drum sander, etc....

I (having used a table saw for about 15 years now) wouldn't even look at the Saw stop most simply because of the price. I know that acidents can happen but like I said before, it might be on the jointer, or bandsaw and not the table saw.

If I were in the market for a new table saw I'd also have to look at all the other features like you've mentioned (all but one that is) and I'd pick the Grizzly G1023SL. This saw will do everything you will ever need. You can get it with a longer fence (more rip capacity) but my guess is you'd never need more than the stock setup for ripping plywood for making molds etc...(besides, you can always get a couple of cuts done where ever you buy your plywood from, that's what I do.). This saw is 220V though, but honestly I think you should consider it. It's consumes less power and is much easier on the motor. This saw is also 3hp which means you could most likly cut through 2" thick ebony (if you had any) in one pass with out it even blinking an eye. And it has great dust collection (mostly because it's a cabinet saw, and not a contractors saw).

The one thing I'm concerned about is getting it down to the basement. As long as you can get a 500lb tool down there (Uncle Bob did it with several of his tools) I'd go for a cabinet saw. The weight as already mentioned helps keep the noise level down as well as it doesn't shake like a light tool does. It's just rock solid.

That's my $0.02 for ya.

Oh on thing you may want to do first is go to woodcraft or some other well equipt tool supply company and see if they have an afternoon session or class on using the table saw. This I think is a must to make sure you and the saw stay safe.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

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I would look for a cabinet saw on Craig's List. I see Unisaws in the $700 range regularly. Dust collection on a contractor's saw is handled by your lungs and all available horizontal surfaces in the shop. Set it up straight, everything parallel, use push sticks whenever possible, and make yourself a variety of them. Though the SawStop looks awesome, my biggest fear with a table saw is kickback. Seems like it happens every time I give the work less than 100%.

The great blade Mario recommends is the 7.25" Freud Diablo. Plenty of blade for most tasks, and it takes a thin kerf, never bogs my 1hp contractor's saw, and creates way less dust. I never use my oft-praised WWII.

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Gabriel Regalbuto
Carlsbad, California
Freedom 35!

I wish that I had the choice of saws that those of you in the USA have. Here in Australia, saw choice is much more meager, and prices are much, much higher. I researched heaps of saws, and while if I had the option of getting any saw I wanted, I may have chosen a different one, I took possession of a new Jet Super Saw on Wednesday.

It has a sliding table and a Biesemeyer style fence. Lots of cast iron and a 1 3/4 hp motor. We run on 230 - 240 volt here so this might give this motor a bunch more grunt than on 110 volt. Don't know, but the motor says it can be wired either way. I bought the mobile base with this saw, and highly recommend it. The saw weights in at 290 kg. so no mean feat to move around when it's not on wheels. It also is a fully enclosed cabinet saw with a 4 " dust port.

The sliding table is a real joy to use, and has a really brilliant miter gauge with a stock hold down. Helps to keep the hotdogs out of the blade. The biesemeyer fence is super accurate, and you can get a tenon jig to fit the saw as well. I bought one of these too, just 'cause I wanted one, and I cut my first neck tenon with it yesterday. Came out perfect.

I posted a couple of pictures of it on the ANZF Hesch, so you can have a look the next time you check it. If you want more pictures or info, just email me and I'll get them to you.

Cheers M8

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Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Hesh, the SawStop contractor's saw is at my local Woodcraft, and it looks pretty good. It's not by any means cheap compared to other contractor saws, but it is very well made and has "The Feature" other saws don't have but should have. If you can't afford the cabinet version, then the contractor saw is a good choice if you really want The Feature - which I do as well. Some day when my ship comes in....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hey guys - Mitch the 9 fingered Guitar builder here...

Hesh - after many years teaching adults at the CT Valley School of Woodworking on the basics of using a table saw, I can tell you with all my heart that even though you will spend more on it, get the sawstop saw.

Now I've used Jet Cabinet saws, Unisaws, Powermatics, and even some craftsman saws over the years and the one truth is that if you don't know what your are doing, or have never really used a table saw, there are a lot of common mistakes that people make that will end up gettign them hurt. And not just by putting their hot dog in the blade...for example...

How many of you have removed the flimsy blade guard from your saws because its always in the way? Most table saw manufacturers also put the riving knife/splitter on that as well, and if you are ripping into a 3" piece of mahogany or some other relatively heavy wood (sapele?) without a good splittter or some anti-kickback device, you are essentially queing up a rocket that can come right back out of the saw and hurt you - badly.

Even the push sticks sold at most places encourage the piece to ride up on the blade and kick back as opposed to keeping the pressure "down and forward"...How about the zero clearance insert? Are you all using one or no?

Beisemyer makes great aftermarket safety devices (splitter, blade guard that actually works, etc.) that you should not overlook if you are NOT buying or using a Sawstop. But you cannot beat good ol' basic training on the tool. I've had students who were "woodworking" for years and couldn't safely rip a 3/4" piece of cherry without sending it flying across the shop.

Hesh my friend, as I would love to continue to read your tutorials and wisdom on this forum, I would encourage you to go to a basic woodworking course like this one and take the class on tablesaw basics.

Then buy the sawstop

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Mitch

Thanks folks!

Todd I did a Google search on the Woodtek 148-271 because it sounds like a great recommendation (Thank You) but if you do a Google search the results don't indicate where I can purchase one, or at least from any vendor in my neck of the woods. Who carries the Woodtek 148-271 please? Also is Tolpin's tablesaw book titled Tolpin's Table Saw magic? I want to order this right now.

Mitch I hear ya and think that for me to take a course on using a table saw is an excellent idea. My only regret is that you won't be my instructor.

It sounds like kick-back is a more frequent problem and the SawStop does not address this any better than other saws. Remember too that when I mention the SawStop I am referring to the contractor's saw because that is the only one that I could possibly swing, but not with out a lot of .....

The impression that I am getting here from the many great posts is that the table saw industry in general is saturated with offerings and as such many of the saws are pretty good - competition is fierce.

Hesh, a quality splitter on a table saw helps to eliminate kickback. The splitter on the SawStop is excellent, and may be the best I've seen. Of course you have to make sure everything is squared up good on any saw, as in the blade running perfectly parallel to the table slots, and the fence running perfectly parallel to the blade.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I agree regarding kickback.

Five summers ago I ran a Unisaw four hours a day in the university's shop. One day this thing grabbed a small piece of 1/4" MDF and shot it back right passed my ear, off the ceiling, and into the back wall by the door 30 feet away. After that, who knows, because it drilled itself a five or six inch wide hole through the wall. We always make the fish bigger, but it was within a foot of my face.

I agree about reading up on technique or renting a technique DVD.

Here's one thing I have never understood. We all try and wear safety equipment appropriate for the tools we are using. I don't have a tablesaw (shop is too small and I HAVE to have a bandsaw) and so for my bandsaw, jointer, and router I use eye protection and hearing protection. Aside from getting your hand in the way of the cutter, there aren't really any common dangers that occur. As dangerous as they are, if you work properly, the chances of hurting yourself are really, really low.

However, the most common danger with tablesaws is kickback and that can be much harder (sometimes impossible) to prevent. So why don't you wear a faceshield. You still might get bruised badly or cut by a flying workpiece - but you won't end up visibly scared for life or possibly deformed from serious damage. You can better believe I would be putting one on everytime I ripped a piece of wood.

Hesh, I have a Delta Unisaw and just got rid of a 1950's Craftsman. I have used some other table saw's from an 80's era craftsman to a Northfield Foundry 16" saw. The problem with a lot of the saws out there, new today is much of the same problem we have with a lot of things manufactured today. That is, unless you are at a certain price point, you're probably buying something that is meant to be a hobby saw used intermittently at best and never seeing more that XX amount of hours. That said, if you're even contemplating a saw like the SawStop, you're in the area where you are buying a "real" table saw and nearly all of them will probably serve you well. Like most things associated with tools, often your accessories and necessities are going to approach or exceed the cost of the tool itself.

The blades are important and good blades can be had for $40 on up to $120. I use Amana blades, but the Forrest blades typically get fantastic reviews. The fence on a table saw is your most important consideration. Buying an aftermarket fence system can easily add $300 to the price of a saw. The Incra fence seems like it would be top notch for a luthier, but the Biesemeyer, or one of its clones has almost become the standard. The Incra actually uses geared teeth in the fence for repeatablity.

As far as dust collection, the cabinet saws are much easier to corral the dust than a contractor's style. Left tilt vs. right tilt is largely personal preference and it is often a misunderstood thing. If you have a left tilt or right tilt saw, it does not chang the side of the blade that you work from, only the way the blade tilts when making cuts with the blade angled to the table. I have a right tilt Unisaw that I picked up used for $600. I actually prefer a left tilt saw, but it is just because that's what my old one was. Getting a good miter gauge will also be high on your list of must-haves.

Happy hunting.

Darrin

Unfortunately the sawstop only uses 10" standard and 8" dado set. I think it will have an error code with other blade sizes. If you want to slot fretboards, or use small blades with thin kerfs for ripping binding/purf, veneers, etc. I'm not sure you can do it with the sawstop.

Thanks guys!

I just got off the phone with my local Woodcraft where I am a frequent flier and I spoke to a guy who runs the place. He said that although he can get me a SawStop contractor's saw he has not carried them yet waiting to see what the demand might be. According to him I am the first one who has asked about it.

Pricing is out of my range because when you add in the stand and fence it goes over $2K which is way more than I wanted to spend. But I hear ya Don my friend and I am still loving my Festool stuff that I purchased solely on your recommendation.

I think that since I have gotten this far without a table saw and since all I want to use it for is guitar building that although many of the saws that folks are recommending here are great they may not be the best value play for me. And I should have been more clear with a budget number which I would like to keep under $1K and this of course includes the requisite must-haves i.e. fence, stand if needed, Kevlar athletic supporter......etc.

The Jet hybrid should come in just under a grand. Its been rated pretty well.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I agree. And know where the blade is, but keep your eye on the fence. And use a push block. Never those long notched sticks. Those are scary.

I just taught the Fundamentals of Woodworking class for the first time this summer at Red Rocks, and it's pretty scary letting 12 newbies use the tablesaw for the first time! I've gotta say, I wouldn't have felt any less nervous with a SawStop. But lo and behold, no kickbacks, and no missing fingers!

Hesh, I understand your budget concerns. I do, however, still have to vote for a more powerful saw. Unisaws are great. I like the Powermatic too, and Grizzly makes great stuff. I'd go for one of the hybrids at the very least.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

im sorry, but please do not spend $2000 plus dollars on a contractor style saw. for that money there are much better saws to be had. seriously.

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sweat the small stuff.

No prob Heath my friend I don't want a table saw that much........

Still looking here and listening to everyone's point of view and thanks again for your help!

Not sure what you mean here, Todd. Isn't the rip cut the one that benefits from a splitter?

I've been using a Jet contractors saw that I bought new about 11 years ago. It does what I need, but I've been looking forward to replacing it when the new shop gets built. I'm thinking Griz 1023 SLW. Then get the Jet off its legs and on to a bench to save room, and make it a dedicated fret board slotter. Unisaw and Powermatic 66's look great, but my sense is that a lot of the advantage is in a cabinet shop running the saw 8 hours a day and wanting it not to need tuning too often. I'm also wary of used machinery, unless it was owned by a hobbyist who never used it. There are so many things to wear and get loose; I've watched people spend a lot of time and money trying to get a used machine tuned up, including the heavy duty old Powermatics, Deltas, etc.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard, I'm pretty sure he means rip cuts with the blade at 90 deg, not tilted. I was confused at first too.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Hesh here is a link to a pretty good review on the Ridgid
http://benchmark.20m.com/reviews/Ridgid ... eview.html

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

didnt mean to be rude, just thought it needed to be said.

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sweat the small stuff.

Hesh -
As for Sawstop and luthiery please check out the following issue. I was told by the Sawstop people that the saw would NOT turn physically turn on without either the 10" blade or the 8" dado blade installed, citing its' inability as a safety feature. I specifically asked about using the saw with a 6" blade (for fretting) and was told that was not possible with the Sawstop. I had one ordered and immediately cancelled the order. I want my table saw to do whatever I throw at it and, as much as I love the safety aspect, the saw is no good for luthiery unless the Sawstop people build in an override to allow for blades other than those protected by the Sawstop safety device.

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

Hesh ,for the money you can`t beat the Bosch.Very accurate .I use it to cut scarf joints ,fret slots, you name it.If it`s set up properly it will never kick back.I built a stand for mine that has wheels,so I can roll it around.It`s also light enough that I can actually lift it into my pick up truck alone.I believe Lowe`s has them ,and you can get a stand with wheels,which may even come with it.I use this saw in my construction business daily,mostly for cabinetery.I`m convinced it`s the best saw in it`s category.The alternative is a huge heavy cabinetery saw costing in the thousands.For building guitars it will be more than you will ever need.
James W B

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Marc and Sylvan very good catch that the SawStop won't use it safety feature with the blades that we use in Lutherie.

Uncle Bob I read the review - thanks, and it seems that all I can find is the Rigid TS3660 which I suspect is the current model. HD lists it but is out of stock but they also offer free shipping which is pretty cool on a nearly 300 pound saw.