Official Luthiers Forum!

Ian Schneller is the most innovative luthier that I know. I have been amazed following his electric lute build. you can follow along at http://www.specimanproducts.com Select the "Instruments" tab then "Works in Progress"

He builds some very innovative and unusual instruments as well as rotating horn speakers.

In his "spare time" he has workshops on everything from building tube amps to guitar repair, fretting, set up, etc. in his studio in Chicago.

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John Ressler

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

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Michael, I think Colin is protesting that the electric lute is not a traditional instrument.

I think Schneller's background is more from an art/design background (nothing wrong with that) and his instruments all show it. However, he is not all form and no substance - I played in a Blues band where the harmonica player used a Specimen amplifier/horn and it created an amazing sound. Very interesting fellow.

Aw Colin, don't get too stressed!!

just look at it like this......

30 years after the electric guitar became the MUST have in music there is a huge resurgance in acoustic guitars......

if the electric Lute catches on..............

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

BTW, the website is http://www.specimenproducts.com

That is kind of what I figured

So this brings up the questions. How much of a lute’s distinctive sound is attributable to the string coursing and how much to the air chamber characteristics? Can an electric flat body with lute coursing produce the lute sound? and why?

Collin I wound naturally like to hear everyone’s opinion but am defiantly interested in yours

I think it should have a different name..... I'm with Colin!

Call it an electric Harp Guitar or something.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Can an electric Spanish guitar produce the sound of a Spanish guitar?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I can't help but wonder: is this the dorkiest instrument in existence, or does the original, acoustic lute still hold that title? I can see Nigel Tufnel jamming on one of these, in front of tiny Stonehenge.

I'm just razzin' you lute lovers out there. Just jokes (mostly)

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Ian does have a Masters Degree in sculpture, and yes his instruments do reflect this. But this instrument was not completely his brainchild. It was commissioned by a "prominent lute player" (see quote below) of whom I know nothing about. When a player wants to go outside of the box, they usually end up at Ian's.

Quote from the website
"The electric lute is for Michiel Niessen a prominent lute player from the Netherlands. His instrument will have ten strings, three of which share a longer scale and are fret-able drones. The neck is exceptionally wide compared to a guitar and embodies three carbon fiber reinforcements for stiffness. This prototype is taking the shape of an oversized Maxwell guitar which I realized is actually shaped like a lute with horns!"

You can learn about Michiel here - http://www.web.mac.com/mniessen/iWeb/mn ... about.html

Also, check out Ian's ukelele on his website. We are often quick to disdain departure from generally accpeted tradition, but a lot can be learned from someone so far out of the box.

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John Ressler

You are right! Thanks for the correction Steve.

(If I knew how to edit a previous post I would change it - any help here?)

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John Ressler

It is my understanding that you can only edit soon after your post(not sure how long).Then it is set in stone.
As far as the electric lute...I think it is cool .I understand that tradition is valuable,But hey ...why be SO hung up on it. If the end result is music ....well,I'm in....you get my drift.
peace and respect,
big John

You apparently mistook my questions as being both a slam at the luthier and the instrument. That was mot my intent at all. I was trying to get opinion and theory on the difference in sound between an instrument that I feel is vastly influence by the air chamber of the instrument.. the very same thing can be said of solid body electric and acoustic guitars as well as solid body electric violins and acoustical violins.

No one questioned Ian Schneller’s credentials.

For the record, I was not questioning Mr. Schneller's credentials or ability either. It looks like he does some fantastic work and has some very cool ideas. I just have a personal bias against lutes, and a penchant for lute jokes.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

I didn't take it that you guys were questioning or slamming the builder - not at all. Just adding information about the builder and his work. I don't think he is too well known in our circles - but I find the man and his work fascinating and inspiring.

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John Ressler

Michael I think the sound of a lute is down to Mario's 'details'. Take one part away and it starts to sound un-lute like. The most critical parts for me are three-fold. Firstly the reflective stiff body shell, the egg shape of the lute is an incredibly strong one, and doesn't rely on any bracing to ensure it's structural integrity. This is then coupled to a very thin top, usually in the .080-.060" range, ladder braced (with some bracing variation behind the bridge) with tall, but thin braces. This other critical area is the double coursing of the strings. Lutes are double coursed instruments, the only exceptions being the first course and sometimes the diapasons, coursing is usually octave for the lower courses and unison for the upper. A single course guitar can never sound like a twelve string, a single coursed 'lute' could never sound like a lute.

Also important are the frets, these should ideally be gut as should the strings, there are some with Nylgut strings and frets, I have tried it, but though more stable than gut they do not carry the same tone. I have when restoring some original period lutes had to remove wooden frets that had been glued onto the fingerboard, just the addition of the gut frets make an incredible difference to the tone.

The short, stiff neck also helps to have an instrument that sustains beyond what you think it should. The thing though that most people comment on when they pick up one of my lutes is the weight, any guitar, even the lightest classical seems very heavy in comparison to my or any lutes.

The lute was not a pre-curser instrument to the guitar, but a finished one in it's own right, the classical instrument to the guitar's more folk background. Those that rememeber the comparison piece I played using lute then guitar, will remember that most commented that the lute sounded superior for the music played, I think you did Michael.

I have nothing against Mr Schneller's interesting instrument, I would enjoy playing it, but a single coursed, metal fretted, stopped diapason instrument can never under any circumstances be called a lute, Waddy was closest with electric harp guitar. If Toyota gave Michael Schumacher a Prius it wouldn't make it a race car, because a lute player is the customer for this doesn't make it a lute. It is still interesting though.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Excellent post, Colin.

Colin nailed the description on the head. While there are many examples of multi string guitars such as harp guitars and Bohlins Alto guitar, they can not sound like a lute.

Likewise the late 19th century- early 20th century German guitars which have 6 strings and are sometimes called a bass lute or lute guitar are only similar to a lute in shape.

It was the Vihueala de mano that evolved into the guitar but no other instrument has touched the space that a Lute occupies in plucked string instruments. In all of its forms, a lute is immediately distinguishable in sound because of the incredibly light but strong construction as Colin has noted. I have historic guitars that have ivory bar frets and even though they may look like any other early transitional guitar form, just the difference in fretting affects the sound. The action of a lute is so different because of the tied frets and fingerboard that is flush to the plane of the top that many guitarists give up trying to play a lute because they cant adjust to the differences. While the first reaction when picking up a lute is the weight, the extreme light weight also affects the way the player interacts with the instrument.

A guitar setup for playing the blues with thick chunky strings and a sound that evokes the characteristic blues vibe leads the player to adjust the playing to what the instrument is capable. The same is true of a Lute. When you play a lute there is a whole other awareness of each note, the tone and color of the musical lines and an attitude about the music that transforms the player.

If I have had a stressful day I can pick up an electric guitar and shred some riffs or create a wall of sound that can be a physical or emotional stress relief. If I am tense, distracted, angry or out of sorts, I cant even get through a piece of lute repetoire. A lute draws me in when I am peaceful and leaves me speechless but it is the balance of an eggshell thin instrument so finely braced that also prevents me from playing if my head is not in the right place. Lute music can be as joyous, playful, and jubilant as it can be contemplative and serene. There are few other instruments that compare to the lute.

My classical guitar while it can be intimate, is more a jack of all trades as I can play Bach, Tarrega, "the girl from ipanema" or if I want to abuse it a Willie Nelson solo with a pick, but it is still not the connection you get from a Lute.

I have only built 2 Lutes...at one time I decided that I couldnt call myself a luthier if I hadnt built a Lute. That was back when Robert Lundberg was with us and GAL published his many articles and then his book. To play a Lute is an experience and as I said not all guitarists can get into it but to build a Lute is an amazing journey into precision and subtlety. In some ways the construction of a lute is simple but on the other hand every detail has to be thought of in how it affects the whole instrument. Any one that has seen Colin's work or has seen a Lute close up will appreciate it.

Thanks for those perspectives Colin & Shawn. I have never held a lute - but am really fascinated by them and my hat is tipped for those of you who can build one.

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John Ressler

For some of the newer members, those that don't think lutes are dorky, this is one of my recent lutes, an 8-course Heiber, and also a piece of music played on it.

Colin

My Lay Hunsdon's Puffe

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin: that is some amazing craftsmanship. I never said dorky can't be beautiful! Superb work.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Oh my Colin....(hat in hand)
Those are beautiful.Fascinating discussion on things musical...thanks to all.
peace and respect
big John

hi
Colin chill.
the drawing at the top o’ the page represents a plank o’ wood on which some wire will be stretched and any sound it will make will be derived electrically it is not a lute. Its like Leo Fenders guitar, its not a Torres the only similarity is the stringing / tuning.
Who knows it might “catch on” and all the kids who take it up will gravitate to a real lute, as has happened with the guitar and this forum will be full o’ novice lute makers.
Oh was the wee clip Dowland?.
And an other great instrument from you, well done.
Geordie

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some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
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