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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:34 pm 
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Koa
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Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi all. I am getting equipment to start my build. Just about to order the following items.
My question is ! what else would you guys suggest me to get as a starter?
If Chisels, then what sizes are most usable. Was thinking of getting 2 good ones to start out with, suggestions ? Hesh, "blueSpruce" ? 8-) .
Rasps for neck shaping ?

Look forward to hear you view on this.

From Tracy at "Luthiersuppliers"
1. The Simple Centerline Finder
2. The Brace Maker @ 15' & 28' Radii
3. The Easy Jointer
4. 10" Round Domed dish @ 28' Radius

From John Hall at "BluesCreekguitars" (good guys need free advertisement) haha.
1. Concave discs 15/28 radii.
2. Go-bars.
+ all the other goodies, including all the parts, woods etc, from both John, Bob C and Chris at "hanalei"

Thanks for looking, helping and taking you time.

Your friend. Lars


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida
First name: Glenn
Last Name: LaSalle
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Hi Lars,

WRT chisels, I just received a 1/2" Lie Nielsen Bevel Edged Chisel (with cocobolo handle) and liked it so much that I just ordered a 3/4" this morning. Woodcraft sells the set, but I really only wanted 2, so ordered direct form Lie Nielsen on their web site (ask for cocobolo, they no longer list as an option).

I too want to buy a rasp, and it seems folks like the #49 and #50 ... but if you could only have 1, which one?

Don't forget a good block plane (i was using an old stanley, but broke down a few months back and got a lie nielsen).

However, I am also a beginner, so wait for the more experienced folks.

One piece of advice, when I first started buying hand tools to start, i bought some very decent equipment... but over time, i have already replaced alot of it with much better quailty tools. If I had to do it again, I would have been more patient, and bought the "good stuff" from the start.

Thx!

Glenn


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Koa
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Thanks alot Glenn, I was just looking at a saw-rasp for neck shaping ! it had some great reviews the Lie Nielsen, seems to be great, was just checking out the long handled paring chisel from lie. 50 bucks seems ok to me, but the BlueSpruce looks sooo darn great its hard to resist, haha. I read from the Cumpiano book that one should not get a cheap chisel. so I´ll see what to do. :? . whats up you guys, are you asleep or just tired of my questions :lol: . Eat Drink eek wow7-eyes

Lars


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:42 pm 
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skinnysteel wrote:
was just checking out the long handled paring chisel from lie. 50 bucks seems ok to me, but the BlueSpruce looks sooo darn great its hard to resist, haha. I read from the Cumpiano book that one should not get a cheap chisel.
Lars


Yes I started looking at the blue spruce too! check out here too!http://www.haroldandsaxon.com/index.htm I am thinking of a set with macadamia from these guys!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:22 pm 
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Hei Lars!

Blue spruce chisels are very nice, but come on; you live in Sweden, home of the worlds finest tool steel! 8-) You should be able to find some very nice chisels locally, my favorites are the classic Eskilstuna brands: E. A. Berg, Jernbolaget etc. unfortunately all out of business, but look in antique stores, flea markets, you uncle's garage, anywhere you can think of, I bet with a little detective work you can find chisels that will be the envy of us all.

And to continue my wet blanket rant... Have you checked what the shipping will be for some of those items (e.g. radius dishes)? My advice: Find out first IF indeed you need those things, then make them yourself if at all possible, and spend the balance on some nice wood instead.

<edit> Of course, if you can afford it, what the heck; buy it all and be done with it. I'm just a tightwad, don't you know... idunno

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:31 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What Arnt said; shipping may well kill you on some of that stuff, and you really don't need a lot/most of it made for you. Benders, bending forms, molds and radius dishes can all be made within a weekend or two (less time than regular air shipping takes, and since ground/sea shipping is no longer an option, that's pricey), and I can recommend Mike Doolin's bender design as relatively easy to make, and the results are good: http://www.doolinguitars.com/articles/bender

Dishes, yes, but they can be made and/or ordered them from Craft Supplies (UK, call or email them as their website is useless) which should cut down on shipping. Descriptions of how to make jigs for cutting radii onto braces abound, although I'll be honest and admit that at my building tempo (slow), ten minutes spent with a block plane, then sanding on the dish to get the radius just right, then scraping right before gluing gets the job done plenty fast enough. May change things now that I have a router table, but then again, I may not.

Centerline finding requires little more than a ruler and a pencil (little crosses between two frets, diagonally, will locate the midpoint between said frets in both vertical and horizontal orientations), and while I'm sure the jig is lovely, it's really not necessary to achieve perfectly good results.

Go-bars: find a kit store, get 5mm fiberglass rod and rubber tips for it, and make your own. Works great, pretty cheap. Only reason I ordered those from the US was that I was visiting at the time anyway; half my go-bars come from my local kite supply store, and were only marginally more expensive than the online shop.

Chisels: I absolutely love my bluespruce set, 1/2" and 1/4" are the most used, but like Arnt says, second hand stuff is great too. I did most of my work with Kirschen chisels, which are also perfectly servicable.

For rasps I'd recommend against the saw rasp (which works, I have one, but don't use it much), and strongly urge you to buy one or two (coarse/medium or medium/fine) Herdim hand cut rasps from Dick Tools (Dick.biz) in Germany. The regular cabinet rasps are priced around 35 euros, perfect size. No need for their 'super magic 10,000 teeth' model; at that point I'd rather use a scraper.

Also, quite frankly, jointing just is not that difficult. Get a #5 or #5 1/2, learn to sharpen and set it up, and practice a bit. Immensley satisfying, and the qualty of the joint is superior to a sanded one. Set to a fine cut, and ask Uncle Bob for some sets that have a fair margin of extra width to them to practice jointing with ;) I also do like my new toy, a Lie Nielsen adjustable mouth block plane. Not terribly expensive, and a fantastic tool. Most of my bigger planes are all old/vintage planes, Record, Union and Stanley.

If you're decided on building multiple instruments, I also recommend stocking up on some 'basic' wood (ebony boards, EIR back/sides, that sort of thing) from Madinter.com or Maderasbarber.com, both in Spain, both with extremely reasonable prices and great products- mostly hardwoods, but they've got great WRC as well. The reason for this: most of the wood tends to be a little on the green side, and is stuff I wouldn't use for at least a year before building with. Storing fingerboards, at least, is easy enough, and doesn't require a remortgage to invest in. Plus, it's within the EU. Rivolta (Italy), Koebl (Austria) and Tonewood.ch (Switzerland) are all good sources for Alpine spruce; I do like Sitka and Engelmann, but the Euro stuff is fantastic.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:44 am 
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Location: Nr London, UK
When I was at wood carving classes I always tried to borrow these rasps even phoning the owner to make sure he'd bring them keep saying I'll treat myself

http://www.turners-retreat.co.uk/acatal ... Tools.html

John

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:16 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Arnt wrote:
Hei Lars!
Blue spruce chisels are very nice, but come on; you live in Sweden, home of the worlds finest tool steel! 8-) You should be able to find some very nice chisels locally, my favorites are the classic Eskilstuna brands: E. A. Berg, Jernbolaget etc. unfortunately all out of business,


Finest tool steel? When I was in tooling, we used to use a lot of A2. We started to buy from Uddeholm, great reputation. After doing a set of inserts for a mold and starting surface grinding the inserts, we noticed a series of these surface flakes in the microscope. Unuseable for plastic tooling as the surface had to be micro-polished.

Turns out, when we called the sale rep in, that the steel was rolled too cold, this was a sure sign of this. They reimbursed us for the steel costs but that was insignificant compared too the work involved in the inserts. Never seen it before or since! It was very expensive for us not just in money but time.

Yeah! I heard the same thing about Swedish steel. I don't believe it!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:57 pm 
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ToddStock wrote:
I second the suggestion to make or buy locally where possible. While Tracy, John, and our other sponsors are fantastic guys offering great products, you will get far more out of building some of your own fixtures and jigs than just cost savings - I view the making of jigs and fixtures as a warm-up for the sort of logical, step-by-step problem solving approach necessary for luthiery. The first thing I made when learning how to work wood was a bench hook...far more useful than anything else I made for years afterward.

While I would definitely pick up the center finder, bending blanket, and other difficult or impossible to make items from our sponsors, you might take a look at the cost and time trade-offs between ordering bender, binding jig, dishes, etc., and buying a decent band saw, drill press, table saw, and router to make your jigs and fixtures. For someone definitely interested in building more than a few instruments, investing in some shop tools and making a bench, outside mold, etc. might be a good tradeoff.

In terms of hand tools:

- For rasps, I would go with a Herdim 704722 (Cabinetmaker's Rasp) or or the Chinese-made version (704672) from Dick - a medium cut hand-cut rasp should be close to what you'll see with a #49, and you can finish up the neck with a cabinet file, card scrapers, and sandpaper/block.

- Card scrapers are essential - the Bahcos are fine after a bit of polishing and squareing the edge - excellent Swedish steel, but not as neatly finished as when Sandvik was a separate entity. If you end up ordering from LN or Woodcraft, get the set of LN card scrapers - made from the best Swedish saw stock, they come ready to go (LN makes them from offcuts of the rolls of steel they use for their back, tenon, and dovetail saws).

- For chisels, I would second Arnt's suggestion to find 6mm, 12mm, and an 18mm Bergs - the round, ring-handled, blue labeled ones are superb, and take an edge that is very durable. The best had that beautiful blued finish that the Japanese still use on their hand-forged tools. To get you started, you might order nice 1/2" and a 3/4" paring chisels from Blue Spruce and round out your collection with bevel edged Bergs, etc. as you find them locally. It is very handy to have a few narrow chisels as well for trimming truss rod channels or saddle slots - single bevel carving chisels in 2mm and 6mm (Pfiel from Dick) work, or you can find some well-used 6mm chisels and grind them to the width you need...I buy old beat-up, chipped Bucks and Witherbys to anneal, regrind, and reharden/temper for jobs like this.

- I would not bother ordering a 10" convex dish - just take a scrap of MDF, mark a grid of lines with a pencil, and rub it around in the 28' radius dish until the lines are gone...almost instant convex dish, and an exact match to the dish you are using for the top and save shipping.

- A small trimming plane is one of the most useful tools in my shop. I prefer the LN low angle block plane over anything else, but the Lee Valley tool is nice if you can tolerate the wider body. An older US made Stanley #60 or English-made Record #60 off of Ebay might also be a good option - either would benefit from a blade swap.

On wood, I think you might see what can be found locally or at least on the continent. A couple sets of back & side wood from Colin's source for mahogany and a half dozen nice tops, fretboards, etc. from Madinter or one of the UK suppliers might be a good way to get your first few guitars built with quality materials at reasonable cost.


I was wondering when you would chime in.

Now would you recommend same chisels for the guys in the States?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Notes on rasps: I have microplane tooling, have not used it a single time since getting the hand cut Herdim rasps. Also have the cheap chinese swordfish rasps Dick sells, and while they're quite nice, they can't touch the Heridm rasps for smoothness of cut. They are nice and agressive though.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
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Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
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WOW, thanks for this so welcomed inputs from you all.

Allthough I live in Sweden, its real hard to find some old "in good condition" chisels from the good makers nowdays! been looking at the places usual, but only real badly used ones show up.

I allready bought the equipment from Tracy, so that cannot be reversed, but I am happy to recieve it soon though, :P . the radius dishes from John are not ordered yet, I tried to find it on the UK website,"Craft Supplies" but like you said Mattia it was a crappy site, so I will have to give em a call to see their prices etc.

About getting wood from Europe, I must once more say this, the Dollar is way low, so Its cheaper to get wood from the states, even after shipping is put on.

Quote:
Go-bars: find a kit store, get 5mm fiberglass rod and rubber tips for it, and make your own. Works great, pretty cheap. Only reason I ordered those from the US was that I was visiting at the time anyway; half my go-bars come from my local kite supply store, and were only marginally more expensive than the online shop.

Great idea will for sure look into that. Thanks a million. Mattia. I will for sure sit down and go through the doolin bender design. Just afraid I will spend my whole time on jigs "almost wrote jugs" hahaha hmm. instead of on building the guitar. allthough I guess it comes with the territory.

Todd, Thank you so much for helping me out, I will get the LN scraper set. I was on a buying mode so I got all I saw, thats why I got the 10" didnt use my head I guess , way better to do as you suggested !!!!! but done is done, and it will come in good use.

Arnt. Thanks for your input to, would love to come by your shop and discuss guitars one of these days, "and go out fishing some salmon ;) " Love fishing", here we mostly have trout "up north" as you may already know, "if your interested in fishing that is hahahahaha. duh . Well as we´re almost neighbours. [uncle] :P .

Another question. the BLOCK PLANE, well what is its most often used area. ? what about the finger planes ? will I use a block plane more often ? would you recommend me to get a fingerplane to use for carving the braces ? or should I just stick with the chisels ?

"for the record no my wallet is almost empty" :shock: [xx(] .
I am even using my credit card right now, But I am working on the side "carpenter" so there is some money on the horizon. hmm.
ok if you all find some more important gear, let me know. Like stuff for cutting the rosette etc etc.

From my heart, thanks for all your inputs. Lars.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:59 pm 
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Quote:
While I would definitely pick up the center finder, bending blanket, and other difficult or impossible to make items from our sponsors, you might take a look at the cost and time trade-offs between ordering bender, binding jig, dishes, etc., and buying a decent band saw, drill press, table saw, and router to make your jigs and fixtures. For someone definitely interested in building more than a few instruments, investing in some shop tools and making a bench, outside mold, etc. might be a good tradeoff.


Todd ! I was at the store looking at band saw, drill press, table saw, and router ! just the other day actually. I am a bit afraid of the brands that sell the cheaper stuff, but my vallet tells me thats all I can get for now hmmmm. might just win the lottery soon .haha.

Quote:
Notes on rasps: I have microplane tooling, have not used it a single time since getting the hand cut Herdim rasps. Also have the cheap chinese swordfish rasps Dick sells, and while they're quite nice, they can't touch the Heridm rasps for smoothness of cut. They are nice and agressive though.


Mattia are you saying the chinese ones arn´t worth getting ? would you suggest me to get the hardim instead ? the reason I am asking is they are like 6 time more costly. so is the cost worth it ?

Lars.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:15 am 
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Just found some chisels at ebay any input on this one, or on Robert Sorby paring chisels?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330266750949&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

will also get 1 blue spruce and 1 LN long handled. and perhaps a paring Robert Sorby ? not sure yet on that ???


Lars


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:20 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The dollar is low, yes, but the Spanish suppliers are very, very cheap. I haven't found any US big stores that can beat them on price for almost all their back/side sets. Not even with the low dollar. And shipping is reasonable for large-ish shipments: my last 'batch' of 8 sets of back/sides and 30-odd fingerboards and 30-odd bridge blanks cost 50 euros to ship.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:15 pm 
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If you don't yet have your first two chisels, I would say you have gotten ahead of yourself by looking at a bunch of specialized guitar making fixtures. Guitar making is woodworking. For example, I don't have a centerline finding jig, but I do have some good rules, which will do that job, as well as thousands of others.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Your just jelaous Howard !! laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe . well you´re right I might have moved to fast, but still I am sure I will have use for them, today I was at the hardware store looking for some machines. FUN FUN FUN. like looking under the tree at christmas when you were younger. nowadays its only socks and tshirts hahaha.

ALSO. any input on the chisels i mentioned above would be welcomed !

Lars.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Hi Lars! Sorry it took me so very long to see your question about Blue Spruce. idunno

I received my BS 1/2" paring chisel with African Blackwood standard sized handle and it looks and feels like the best chisel that I have. Mind you I have not used it yet because I am still building my new shop and not guitars but I am very impressed with the balance and feel of the BS chisels. So much so that I am going to order a mate for this one only 3/4" wide. I prefer wider chisels for some things but if I was going to have only one BS chisel the 1/2" would be my recommendation.

BTW the service from BS was excellent and I had mine in less than 2 weeks! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:19 pm 
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Hesh,

Just curious, why the BS paring chisels over the dovetail chisels? I assume they are both great, but was curious why folks prefer the longer blades?

Thx!

Glenn


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:47 pm 
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Glenn my friend as I said I have not used the BS chisel yet but the feel is superb at least to me.

My favorite to date has been the LMI chisels (second from left) but I prefer a longer chisel so I thought that BS might be the answer. I also prefer a wider blade and tend to use one chisel for brace carving. Since I rely heavily on my favorite chisel the A2 steel was also a very welcome thing.

Check out the African Blackwood handle - very pretty chisel too.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:37 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I second the Blue Spruce recomendation (mine are done in Cocobolo, although blackwood sure is purty...). Perfect, perfect balance. Why the longer blade? Because I get more control using the two-handed technique I usually employ. Same movement at handle (right hand) results in smaller movement at the cutting tip (lever arm is longer). It also allows me to get in deep when carving braces. It does make these chisels ideal for finer work, not hacking and such; for rough carving a heel, I reach for the big honkin' 1" vintage socket chisels I've got, although the blue spruce does admirable to refine subtle details. I got the full set (plus the skews) and I use them all at various points during the build. I use the 1/2" most, and I'm tempted to order an additional 3/4" chisel, but I don't really NEED it.

Lars: yes, the Herdim files are, in my book, worth the upcharge compared to the Chinese ones. The one Chinese rasp I think is close-ish is the most expensive large Swordfish one, and even then, mostly because it's a different shape and lets met get into different corners.

If my shop were broken into and my tools stolen, one of my very first orders would be a pair of those Herdim rasps. I really do like (and use) them that much. I might eventually get the Chinese rasps as well, as they're fantastic...for the money you pay for them.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Thanks alot Mattia. Ok then I think ill go for the herdim rasps. I am bidding on a few chisels on ebay, but its a bit difficult to know the names and all !. Still I will get me some fine paring chisels.
How about the Robert Sorby paring chisel, or Crown ? "new" ? well Again thank you all for the inputs.

Lars.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:31 pm 
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Nobody's mentioned one of my favorite tools, the curved brace chisel from SM. I find it
invaluable for carving braces. Maybe I just have poor chisel technique, but with the
curved blade, I find it much easier to do the final shaping on the braces. Even more
useful than the small Ibex planes.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Chisels/Guitar_Brace_Chisel.html

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:01 am 
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Good lord man, slow down!!! Start with a couple books, can you get them at the library? If not, then spend time on Google looking at guitar builds.

Then get a couple cheap (but good) tops and bracewood, and start there. Go from there. Can you joint your wood using a small handplane ? If not, you have to get a jointer plane on ebay. Or you could use the sandpaper rout the first time.

You have to kind of start assembling, seeing the tools you need as you go. You can sub a coping saw for a bandsaw, for example.

I ended up with a finger plane for braces because my test top did not come out so well with just a chisel, but I also did not sand them, so maybe I did not need the finger plane right now??.... etc...

You can get necks pre assembled or Martin seconds for pretty cheap, so you may not need a table saw to do the first couple necks etc...

Do some tops first, do you know a cabinet maker who can thickness sand?

The way you were talking, it was like you had an endless wallet... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:08 am 
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Status: Amateur
Frei No my wallet is far from endless I am much sorry to say :shock: :P :P .Been saving some for this situation. Allthough I have been reading Cumpianos book over and over, bought and am watching John mayes videos, researching guitars for the last 2 years and gotten to the situation where I feel comfortable starting building. I am not sure if you´ve read my previous posts ? . I am one of those who goes all or nothing 8-) . I dont want to spend 2 years getting 1 equipment a month.
Woods, extras, neck and parts are already taken care of. "allthough its hard to stay away from ordering more, each time there are new set out I am there watching, its like an obsession hmm. A wierd substitute for woman I guess. hahahaha. laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe .

I Just ordered the following.

1. Lie-Nielsen, "short" handle for the chisel.
2. Lie-Nielsen, Low angle Block plane
3. Lie-Nielsen,long handled Paring chisel 1"
4. Blue Spruce chisel 1/2"
5. Blue Spruce chisel 1/4"
6. IBEX finger plane with 12mm blade.
7. Bandsaw, Luna bs 320

Drill press, Table saw a good Router and a band-sander are something I will get withing the next days/weeks.
My friend owns a thickness-sander so I am good there "for now"

So yes I am moving fast bliss wow7-eyes.

Lars.


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