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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:04 am 
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Cocobolo
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I did a search but there is hundreds of posts to search thru. None completely answered my questions. I am sure I missed read some of the posts too.

After looking at the bracing of a bunch of guitars and talking with a luthier buddy of mine, I am starting to really question the bracing layout and its importance to tone and maybe volume. Though it would appear that some bracing paterns (maybe X) has a tendancy to be louder than others. I would like to understand the brace placement better, at the same time I would like to understand just how critical it is within a given design. So here is the questions:

1) What is the main purpose of the bracings of the top? (strength from collasping?)
2) If the main purpose is strenght (answer to #1?), does it really matter how I brace it to make it strong...as long as its strong?
3) If we assume you need to shave the braces down to make the top resonate (you can't use a 2x4 to brace the top), can a brace that is placed in any location be shaped to cause the top to resonate appropriately?
4) can the movement of a brace a few mm in one direction or the other change the characteristics of instrument?
5)Are there areas that absolutely need a brace for sound regardless of strenght/stiffness?
6) Can I just place an X style bracing on the top and then "fill" in the areas that need extra support?

I am sure I oppened a can of worms that is way over my head, but I wanted to ask.

Joe

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:29 am 
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Joe, I posted this in another thread, but it might just as well apply here as well.

http://web.archive.org/web/200503061149 ... _print.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Bill Cumpiano has some comments that are relevant.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Here is a quote from Dana that sort of contradicts itself:

"I've experimented a fair amount with bracing layout. This, by the way, is more of a design issue than a voicing issue. But I think that you can make considerable changes in the basic character of an instrument by changing your bracing layout. As I stated earlier, design is one of your two most important variables in shaping the sound of the guitar. If you're going after something that's truly different and you want to maintain consistency, then you have to be committed to going beyond voicing alone. "

So he is saying basic brace layout can changed the character of the instrument...but its more of a design issue.....? Not sure I completely follow that.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:16 pm 
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My understanding is that he's more talking about the size, shape and depth of the box versus the bracing layout.

So the character of the sound of the instrument is shaped by the brace layout and shaping where as the Voice of the instrument (loud, boomy, projecting) is shaped by the size, shape and depth of the box.

This is all from my admittedly limited understanding of guitar desin.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Bracing has two purposes: structural and tone-shaping. If you follow the Martin tradition (design) you can alter the tone/response of the individual instrument by voicing, but not necessarily the main "character" (a dreadnaught replica will sound like a dreadnaught, and not even close to, say, a ladder braced parlour guitar).
There are other ways to brace a steel-string top than the usual x-braces/2 x tonebars, but it will most likely be in an other tonal territory.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Ive seen some guitars that use two or three different styles of bracing on the same top. One may employ fan bracing and X bracing on the same top and end up with an excellent sounding instrument. It really makes me wonder if (within reason) any style or layout of bracing could be made to sound good as long as its supports the top and does not kill the resonance.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:49 pm 
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Bracing is decided in conjuncture with size of the sound box, stiffness/thickness/characteristics of the individual top and tonal goal. Builders using thicker/stiffer tops tend to use lower braces, and taller braces on thinner tops, for example. If you're starting it may be good to stick to proven designs.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:37 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Laurent.

I complete agree with you on "sticking to proven designs". I need to have a few successes under my belt before changing designs...but there is no reason to not try to understand this better as I go. I have talked to a few luthiers that don't believe the bracing placement is nearly as critical as most guys tend to lead on. In fact we often see some inovated bracings here on the OLF that don't follow any of the rules, yet seem to be effective. The overall feel of that inovation is that "someone must have really known what they were doing" to make that work. Maybe and Maybe not. Has anyone tried a bracing pattern that held up to the structure but did not sound good? Care to share why? Did you not shape the braces right? Where they too thick? Too tall? Did you abandon the idea before you tried to make it work right? With a little more time, could it have worked well?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:12 pm 
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It's interesting to look at the way a guitar top vibrates before you glue the braces on. It turns out that it does pretty much the same things a braced top does, but at lower frequencies. You could make the unbraced top thicker, and get the stiffness and the pitches up, but it would be pretty heavy. So this suggests that the function of the braces is to stiffen the top up without adding too much weight, and without necessarilly altering the way it 'wants' to vibrate. Of course, the top on the box is a different beast, but sauce for the goose....

My feeling is that the critical area to strenghten is between the soundhole and the bridge. a certain amount of 'belly' behind the bridge does not seem to hurt the tone, but most of the guitars I've seen that were 'played out' had a big dip in front of the bridge. You'll notice that the two most successful brace patterns, X-bracing and fan bracing, concentrate bracing in that area.

I feel that almost any bracing scheme will make a good sounding instrument in some sense so long as you get the bracing into some sort of 'balance' with the stiffness and mass of the top. Braces tend to be 'lumpy', adding a lot of stiffness or mass at certain points. If you think of the sound at high frequencies as spreading through the top sort of like ripples in a puddle, lumpy braces can act like rocks that stick up, or even just approach the surface level; reflecting those waves and breaking up the patterns. It's those resonant patterns that shape the sound, and killing them off with lumpy bracing seems to hurt the tone most of the time.

Of course, a guitar that sounds good to a Classical player when strung with nylon strings might sound awful in a Bluegrass group when set up with steel. Assuming the bridge stays on... Different kinds of music have different requirements, and you need to fine tune the bracing to work for the intended use, as well as working with the top it's glued to.

The 'standard' bracing paterns have been worked out to give the sort of sound people tend to like for the 'usual' sorts of music. The further you depart from these standards the greater the risk that the guitar won't sound 'right'. Deeper analysis can suggest reasons behind the choices: why X-bracing works well on large steel strings and not as well on small Classicals, for example.

In his talk at he last H'burg festival, Mark Blanchard said that 'the tone is in the top': all you can do with bracing is fine tune it. Of course, the differences between good guitars are pretty small, and that fine tuning adjustment matters. If he's right (and I think he is, or I would not have brought it up), then picking the 'right' top for a given shape/size/use is a key part of success. After that comes using the 'right' bracing pattern/profile to get the basic tone you want. After that comes the fine tuning to get that tone to be as good as it can be. It is distressingly easy to kill a good piece of wood with bad bracing, but getting it right is mostly a matter of paying attention to details and working carefully.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Well said, Alan.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Alan,

OMG! That is exactly the information I was looking for and no one would say. [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

Is this really that misunderstood in the general lutheir world? Do others not understand it any better than I do, or is it just easier to copy and follow than it is to lead and create new possibilities? Thanks to those who replied. I really appreciate your time.

Joe

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:15 pm 
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What do you think of this bracing pattern?
Attachment:
bracing.jpg

This will be for upper bout sound holes.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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