Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello!

I have been a member for a while, but this is my first real post (Question...)! In a current or deserves one I will hire it done.
I can bend wood.
I can brace the box.
I guitar (acoustic) magazine one of the articles suggested that the setup of a guitar was somewhat at easy. The article compared the setup to a spring replacement in it's level of difficulty. I have not tried a setup. And if I get to the point that I have made a guitar that needs can carve the neck.
I can cut the frets.
I can finish the guitar.
But the set up, that is scary to me! Is this not a make or brake item. The guitar may like look nice, but will it play well? ("Will it sound good?" is for a different post.) Is this what the setup is all about, play ability?

Thanks for reading,

Standin

I saw a great youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvuahP-ZO-c) called "fretbuzz" that will take a lot of the mystery out for you.

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Dave
Milton, ON

Standin my friend a good set-up is every bit as important as building well and fit and finish - perhaps more so.

And yes the term playability and set-up are related - a good set-up will provide good playability so long as your guitar design accommodates playability as well.

Doing decent set-ups is not difficult so long as you know what to expect in a good set-up and your guitar was built to be set-up properly. Things such as proper neck angle, fretting, leveling, dressing, intonation, action, nut slotting and more all contribute to a good set-up. So there is a lot to know and master but none of it is difficult.

I would suggest working on the set-ups on practice guitars and getting assistance from a professional repair person if you can find one who will help you learn.

You will need some special tools such as nut files, reamers for the bridge pins, small saw to slot your bridge pin holes, and files, etc. for making a nut and saddle.

When I finish a guitar it typically takes me about 6 hours to set it up the way that I like it. I am not sure if I am slow, fast, or in the middle.

Hesh, what is "intonation" ? (And how do you get rid of it? just kidding )

Standin

Very good!

You probably can buy it on Ebay.....

Yes, hesh, here is a brand new "intonation". Pretty good price i think...
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Intonation_W0QQ ... dZViewItem
As for setup, it makes a world of difference. I've never done any, but i had a cheapo alvarez setup, and it make a world of difference. It's even more apparent on a violin .002-3" can make or break the action.

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-They made me do this-
My name is Matthew Luce

I've spent hours setting up a single guitar and still been unhappy with it. Usually it's because I've left my saddle too high and my nut slots too shallow. The reason I do this is that I've made the slots to deep and the bridge too low and then you have to start over.

I now level the frets with the instrument strung up so one of my big problems is now solved. That problem was that the neck lifts up when the strings come to tension. I'd set the neck and action with the strings off and then everything would be too high. I'd set it up lower to compensate and the action would be too low or too high.

I know some repair techs and they may do as many as a dozen setups in a day. Every one of their setups is better the the best setup I've ever done. It's almost a completely separate discipline.

Standin....

There may be a huge difference in setting up a guitar for yourself than doing it for someone else. There's so much in the way of personal choice in the matter, especially depending on how someone plays and what styles they want to play. A fingerpicker may well want a lower action than a bluegrasser for example. Jazz.... very low and slinky.

In addition, if you are making a guitar for someone else, one must be aware of the climate that they live in, and how a guitar will settle down in their environment. The guitar will move, and the setup will change. You can set it up perfectly to their specification, but if they live in, say, Colorado and you built it on the East coast, then you can bet it will change!

In fact, I always do the set up myself on guitars that I buy. And only after I have had them for a few months.

1) Adjust neck relief if needed
2) Adjust the nut slots to give me the "feel" that I want on the lower end of the fingerboard, and especially paying attention to intonation and sharpening of the notes over the first two or three frets due to string deflection.
3) Adjust the saddle for the action generally
(in that order)
Stuff such as fret dressing, etc. shouldn't be necessary, but always worth checking.

Rod

setup can be difficult if you take the "shotgun" approach, (ie: a little bit here and a little bit there). However, if you follow a proven system, it is not difficult. Assuming you have assembled the guitar with proper neck angles, I like to adjust neck relief first. Then the nut and lastly, the saddle. The measurements you use for each will depend on the player and what style of music they are playing. There is enough experience on this forum to give you good guidelines for any style of guitar and any playing style....

My sister had that once.... trust me, you dont want it. Took her forever to get over it and then it was back again and again.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Great points. I like to adjust neck relief first, get the saddle at a ballpark height, lower the nut slots to ballpark, go back and fine tune saddle height, then go back and fine tune nut slot depth. I like to remove material from the top of the saddle to fine tune the action for all the strings-- kind of a connect the 6 dots with an arc and sand to that radius. Then I can get the nut slots down to clearances of around 5/1000" over the first fret with *no* buzzing this way. Of course, you gotta have a great fret job to do that (something I can't do yet).

Also... for what it's worth, the generalization that a bluegrasser wants higher action is simply not true. This is one of the biggest myths in bluegrass. You would be surprised how many of the better pickers have low action. I learned how to setup my guitars with low action by pestering Snuffy Smith and Bryan Kimsey, and if you're familiar with bluegrass, you'll recognize those names. Anyone who claims they get more volume with higher action obviously hasn't figured out that we have *microphones* to do this *for us*... Kinda working too hard to go around the elbow to get to their thumb... Oh well, just me humble opinion. No harm or offense meant to anyone whatsoever!

Check out Bryan Kimsey's setup procedure here http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/index.htm

Bryan has had quite a following over at UMGF for years.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The new Acoustic Guitar magazine has a good setup article by Rick Turner. Rick, where are you?!?

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Standin here,4

The article in the magazine started me thinking... a couple of other events added to the question of the importance of setups. First I must credit the master tech at Ye Old Fiddle Shop in Pensacola. She and I have been friends for years. She owns the "little" shop and runs it as best she can. I have seen some 20,000$ instruments come and go! And some just "old family prizes" that she treated with the same care and devotion. One of the complaints that I have heard is that she often pays for an instrument to arrive "setup". But, it is not ( not to her level anyhow). Two hours later, it sounds great. And she is fussing that she has already paid for this to be done etc. What really burns her is when a new student comes in with a ebay special and of course it sounds bad... very bad, and asks her help (read free setup charge here). I started thinking about guitars? You know, box store guitars the type I have tried to play all my life. Are they also in need of a little tender loving care (setup time with a professional)? (That just doesn't sound right...) Maybe it not ME, or the guitar... Maybe its THE SYSTEM!.... to test this out, (all theories need to be tested out,... I took my new guitar to a gentle and caring professional guitar guy and what do you know.... it sound like ....like ... WOW! This "intonation" thing must be closely guarded secret information. I'm off to Ebay to buy the supper secret info...

Really, maybe half the guitars out there are not setup (well) for the people who own and play them? And how would they know any better if they don't have an honest friend to show/teach them. (25 years is a long time to wait for a setup)

Standin

Rick Turner didn't say that, did he? What kind of spring is the author talking about? It's a very inapt analogy.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Filippo my friend I would not be at all intimidated by setting up your guitars. You are an excellent player with a strong appreciation for high-end guitars and as such you also know what you like about a good set-up and what you don't like about a poor set-up. Armed with this knowledge - what a good set-up is and being the analytical guy that I know you to be you will appreciate in advance that many things in a good set-up are functions of something else.

This is why I qualified my remarks with the idea that the guitar has to be properly built too in order to be set-up well. The wrong neck angle will never provide decent action. It's also true that a fret board or frets that are not level will be problematic too.

I think that what I am trying to say is that as builders our set-ups are being worked on in nearly every aspect of building the guitar with the basic geometry being key here.

Once your guitar is built properly setting it up is merely a process of stringing it up and dialing it in as the forces of a fully strung and tuned-up guitar start to interact with the guitar. And keeping in mind that many things in setting up a guitar are functions of some other aspect of setting up the guitar one can dial it all in and Bob's your uncle.

Either that was a misquote or they're probably talking about the springs in an electric guitar trem. I think the quote is from someone that thinks setup is just turning the screws on the saddles of their strat

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

A great set up requires excellent attention to detail. Even just a "good" set up is only different from a poor one by a few thousandths here and a few thousandths there. And it's easy to make little mistakes in how you go about doing it that can make all the difference. For example, when checking the depth of a nut slot, you press the string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets and then check the clearance of the string over the 1st fret. Sounds simple... BUT (assuming you're doing this with new strings) if you don't first press the string down immediately in front of the nut, to make sure it is bending there as it will after it's broken in a bit, you will not get an accurate reading... AND if you press the string down too hard in between the 2nd and 3rd frets, it will lift up a bit behind the 2nd fret and again give you an inaccurate reading of the clearance over the 1st fret (I hold the string down almost on top of the 2nd fret, not halfway between the 2nd and 3rd, and, as when fretting a note while playing, only use enough pressure to make a clean contact between the string and the fret). The point, again, is that you have to pay very close attention to every little detail of how you do every step, or you're not going to end up with a very good setup. So, it's not difficult, but it's very easy to screw it up if you don't have a complete understanding of the process and excellent attention to detail.

If anyone reads Rick's article in AG mag and takes it as complete instructions, rather than simply an overview of the process, they are headed for some serious frustration. There's MUCH more to a successful setup than what is explained in his article.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I believe the "spring" analogy in question is actually a typo from this line of Rick's in the article: "If you're comfortable changing your strings and doing other minor repairs, you can do a basic guitar setup yourself."

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

The comment should have been "strings" not "springs" I'm very very intimidated by the folks around here. I have read your post for a year and a half. You seem like friends. Or maybe a little like my personal heroes. This forum and the goal of building a guitar has brought me through some hard times. This post was the first time I thought of a post that anyone may care about. Thank you all for your comments, it's been fun. But, truly, just reading is much easier on my nerves.

Thanks,
Still Standin