Official Luthiers Forum!

A currently running thread where the client is requesting that the intonation be within a specified tolerance has me thinking here.......

My question is: How do you define success when building for a client?

Having been in the software business all of my life with clients that included government, industry, military, and financial players everything that we did was specified in a contract and/or associated documents that referenced and became part of a contract.

For custom work a definition of success that was measurable and just how it would be measured was specified. For other issues such as the general suitability of the software for a particular task terms such as "perform substantially as described" were used in the license agreement.

So sports fans when you build on a commission basis for a client and there are things that are requested/specified by the customer what methods, if any, do you use to be clear in your dealings with the client and make sure that expectations are reasonable and understood by all?

Do you use a contract? Does the contract call out what the milestones will be and perhaps when progress payments may be due? When a customer specifies something that is not a standard task for you do you define the measure of success in advance and in writing?

This gets into another area too in my mind. When a client wants a highly personalized instrument with say inlay that is interesting or specific to them do you require a greater degree of deposit, progress payments, etc. before and during the actual building?

And lastly - for a simple build where you are building a commission for someone that is not a highly personalized instrument that could be sold to someone else if need be do you use a contract too defining expectations?

There is also the issue of revenue recognition for income tax purposes but I will save that one for another thread.....

Many thanks!

I use a contract. It spells out the payment schedule and terms, trial period terms, warranty terms, and has a full spec sheet describing every detail of the guitar. The contract is written, approved and signed by both parties before construction begins and before any money changes hands.

I have never had a dispute with a customer over an instrument or payment other than one guy who felt he shouldn't have to (didn't want to) pay sales tax.

A detailed contract is a great way to insure that a client knows what he/she is getting into before commitments are made.

I consider it a success if things run smoothly and the client is happy with the guitar.

Mark

Most of what is in my contract is on my website Ordering page.

From just reading the title of the thread, I was going to answer, "When you have a commission for the next one."

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Simple statement, as Howard says.
I was going to add my 2 cents worth, but some may find it inaccurate, so here's my .05 cents

...when a customer opens the case plays for a minute and immediately calls to thank you.

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Nehemiah Covey
www.coveysacoustics.com

I have had one of those that was almost in tears from his joy. I wish they were all like that.

Other customers I have heard absolutely nothing from, but they havent sold the instrument and still have it. I have to assume they are happy with it since I hear no complaints.

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Reguards,

Ken H

What I am looking for here is who uses a contract for your business dealings and how specific you will be in the contract or attachments to same regarding the specifications of the commissioned guitar. If you don't use a contract I am interested in this too and what your experiences have been.

Although I appreciate a client that needed a drool bucket upon receipt of a guitar this is not what I am interested here.

Thanks.

Hesh,

Not a contract as such, but I put together a "Specification" which covers:

- Name/Type of Instrument
- Serial Number
- Who it is being made for
- The commencement of build and expected completion date (with a note that significant deviations from this will be notified by me)
- the package the customer gets with the instrument which includes a webpage during the build, CD with a Word document facsimile of the webpage and build photos, plus an Owners Handbook and microfibre cleaning cloth
- detailed spec of the instrument (scale length, top b/s woods, cutaway or not, key dimensions, soundhole diameter and rosette details, neck construction details, fingerboard details including any binding/purfling/fret size, binding and purfling details, bridge construction details, nut/saddle string spacing, tuners, string gauges, finish, pickup or not, case
- payment details including the procedure if the final payment is not made
- period after delivery for the owner to get back with any issues
-warranty details

After initial discussion with the customer I produce a draft version and this is altered via version control until a final build Specification is reached. Any changes to this once building commences have to be agreed between myself and the customer and a new version of the Specification is issued accordingly.

So far this has worked well with a clear professional understanding and process between myself and the customer that is not that cumbersome to do as it is to describe.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

If anyone would like to post actual copies of contracts they use, they would be a great reference for everyone at this stage of the game.
Nice post Hesh.

Dave

A spec & warranty sheet that is iterated on with the client which, when signed by both parties, becomes the contract. It is equal parts CYA for you and FYI for the client. 50% non-refundable deposit, balance on delivery within 30 days. Changes to the specs during the build (where possible) are added at a cost agreed upon by the builder and client.

All delivery times are estimates, never hard deadlines.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Thanks guys! This is very helpful to me and much of what I was looking for.

I am very glad to see that folks are using a contract and my hats off to ya for doing so. I can't tell you how many people I have known who when it came time to introduce the contract were fearful of doing so.........

A couple of things caught my idea. First some of you are very specific in specing out the guitar. I am wondering if you are absolutely sure that you want to do this? Certainly I can see specing out materials, size, general information but some things like body depth may get you into trouble unless you have the chops to always build to a tight tolerance. In past lives I always avoided a level of detail that added no value to the description but could be used against me by a nit picker. Just a thought.

Michigan also has a 72 hour take-a-walk law which really impedes nothing if you simply factor this in and don't consider the contract fully executed until 72 hours pass.

Some additional questions that I have are as follows:

1) Have your contracts been massaged to be minimal in size?

2) Do you call it a "contract" either when speaking or is the word "contract" printed on the contract?

3) Does anyone use a "Sales or Purchase Agreement?"

4) If anyone would be so kind as to share an example of what they use with me please PM me - it would be greatly appreciated.

My preference is to use a contract but have the contract feel more like a purchase agreement, be easy to understand, and minimal in size but still retaining all the elements of a contract.

Many thanks!

I'm no legal eagle, but that sounds like what I learned in Business Law too. Course that was a couple of years ago! Stuff changes.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Yep - me too, and you can't enter into a contract with a minor, an insane person, or a drunk I think too. And as you said it can't be for an unlawful act, the oldest profession on the planet uses no paper.... in most locations.....

I should have been more clear - what are people calling their contracts - "contracts" or something else with an example being a "sales agreement?"

I do use a contract (commission agreement). I spell out the specs for the guitars and some intended mile stones for both parties with disclaimer on delivery dependent due to uncontrollable circumstances. But I do not spec out the tolerance of intonation. Any mechanical issue such as intonation issue is covered by my warranty.

The tuner used to proof intonation is subject to its own tolerance. I use a Peterson strobe and I have its calibration verified regularly. If a client goes to proof the intonation his tuner may or may not be in calibration or it may have a looser tolerance and that can lead to difference in readings.

On the personalized inlay scenario. I have a scheduled incremental deposit reimbursement incase of order cancelation. If the client has custom inlay and cancels all labor and material for said inlay is deducted from the scheduled reimbursement. The more work done to the guitar prior to cancelation the lesser the deposit reimbursement based on a labor rate and material cost. The incremental schedule can be seen on my web site and is part of the commission agreement. If the client returns a completed guitar that has custom inlay due to dissatisfaction then that is my burden to bare.

If a client returns a guitar due to reasons other than structural, mechanical or cosmetic flaws and the instrument is not personalized I have require 90 days from date of return to sell the instrument prior to reimbursement. If the instrument has personalized inlay and returned with no structural, mechanical or cosmetic flaws then the cost of inlay material and labor is deducted plus 180 days to recondition (replace personalized fretboard and resell the instrument.

On income taxes I work as a DBA (doing business as) I have a DBA account that is my books and is withdrawn from and deposited to only in regards to my lutherie.

Thanks Michael!

One of the many things that I have learned from David Collins is that different brands of strings will intonate differently on the same guitar. With this said if anyone commits to a level of intonation accuracy would it not be prudent to also specify what strings as well as what calibrated tuner is used to measure? And of course this should also be the customer's preferred strings.

Something that I am seeing here that I did not expect is that some of your guys get very specific in your contracts when I suspect some of the things that you are specific about are not at the request of the client. Is anyone concerned that volunteering info that was not requested is a good way to dig a hole for oneself?

Hesh I will PM you a copy of one of my Commission Agreements in the morning

Hesh,

I'm sure that I dont do things the way others do, but I'll contribute to the discussion just so you get an idea of how I do business.

First, I begin (usually) with emails asking for information and answers given. I also ask a lot of questions such as what their intended purpose for the guitar is (recording, stage use, home use, fingerstyle, flat picking, lead, bluegrass, ect.)

I usually will call the potential customer at least twice to discuss it further if they still seem interested. This is where I get more of an idea of what they expect from the guitar and how I would voice it to suit their needs. We discuss woods at this point and special needs such as an odd size nut width or similar need. I also discuss my warranty, build schedule, expected delivery date and other things like that with them.

Once we have the body style nailed down and a good idea of the wood we will use, I have a MS Word document that I send them where I ask them to select all of the materials their guitar will be built with. It is a one page document, but is pretty detailed and it is up to them to specify the details of the guitar such as wood, bindings, purfling style, dots or no dots, nut size, and other things like that. They fill out the form and take as much time as they want. I ask them to call me to discuss any decisions that they have difficulties with. Once they fill out the form and mail it back to me (usually email), then is when I send out the build agreement which has all of the legal jargon along with a price included. Once that is signed and dated and a check for the deposit is in hand, it is then that I start gathering the woods and special materials together for their build. Just as a general rule, I add at least one month to the estimated time it would take me to deliver the guitar, just in case anything comes up that is unexpected. I like to have the guitar strung up and playable for at least 2 weeks prior to delivery in case anything moves after it is finished so that I can make adjustments if needed.

So far, this has worked well for me and I have had no problems.

Hope this helps!

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Reguards,

Ken H