Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey guys,

I will be starting a section of the company that deals with native british hardwoods for guitar woods.

I have been suppling english/scottish (the scottish is the best imho) sycamore for a while now and while it is very hard to get the primo stuff its a good seller for me.
the americans know this wood as euro maple but in fact there are a few maples that grow in europe and acer psudoplatanus is the one that is referd to over here as sycamore.
It has a lovely creamy texture and though not quite as stable as the other maples it is by far my favourate.
i will contimue to supply this wood as long as i can get it (the new season is nearly here so hopefully there will be a log or two comming my way).

but the reason of this is to talk about the other native woods.
I have just secured a good supply of london plane (this is the wood you refer to as sycamore in the states).
This tree is huge and streight growing so guitar suitable boards are easy to get.
the problem is most trees get chipped for wood which is a crying shame.
sets will be about £40 and will all have the lovely lace figure that comes with the stuff.
it often has curly figure as well and these sets will be about £65 becouse of the rarity value.

london plane is hybrid of oriental and american plane this from wikipedia,
The London Plane or Hybrid Plane (Platanus × hispanica, synonyms Platanus × acerifolia and Platanus × hybrida) is a tree in the genus Platanus. It is usually thought to be a hybrid of the Oriental Plane, P. orientalis, with the American Plane (American sycamore), P. occidentalis.

It is very simalar to american plane but lighter in color.
i cant give a direct comparison as i have not seen or used american plane.

I would like to know people opinions on this wood for guitars and guage how interested people may be.
so far there has been alot been interest from sample sets and british luthiers like the idea of using a wood that is local.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this wood.

i am also looking at other native woods.
the obviouse ones being walnut (at last it looks like i have a good source for native grown stock),cherry (i have had bad experience with this wood as moves alot when sawn thin.Its not as stable as its american counterpart but seems to be very popular for necks and body,s.
i am finding good wide defect free stock hard to source),maple etc.

but what about the other native woods.
how about laburnum?
its hard to get big enough for guitar backs but i know people who have used it for fingerboards etc,

of course there is native ash also i notice bob c sells figured american ash maybe our olive ash may make some nice guitars?

yew has been used with good effect and i will stock when i can get it.
I wont bother the oaks an chestnuts as its not really worth my time but i am interested to hear people experiences with british hardwoods and whether they would be interested in them,

Also what about plane for necks? i have seen american sycamore necks,Is it stable enough?

of course there is boxwood as well which is more hassle than its worth but it makes nice bindings and fingerboards/bridges.
The problem with box is that i tend to use castilo now as a substitute (anyone ever used curley castilo box for back and sides?)

also we have alot of acacia here i am not sure if this stuf would be suitable ( i think not really).
and there is of course welingtonia,monkey puzzle,and a plethora of other imported species.

then theres the poplars and ash etc for solid body guitars.

anyway thats about it i think I am eager to find out people opinions of our different woods and what they would be iterested in.

our forest management is pretty poor these days which makes british wood even harder to source and use but i am sure there is much nice wood out there that is currently not being used due to the popular north american timbers being so poplular,

Even if i make only a very small number woods like plane and sycamore available then i will be happy,

Joel.

I have a set of American sycamore aging in the pile, which I'm pretty sure I got from Bob C. Visually it is as you describe. It looks like perfectly good guitar wood to me, but I've never used it.

I think your English walnut is nice looking stuff, and I just got a guitar set locally of this from Rick Hearne (who seems to have his hooks into the English wood market pretty well - he always has piles of English Sycamore)

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Yes the english sycamore gets expoted pretty quick.

i get mine from a scottish buyer who buys up all the good logs and then exports them.
the sycamore is harvested in october-jan and by march it will all be sold.
Even buying by the log clear veneer grade curly english sycamore costs me over $2,000 a cubic meter!!!.
Thats before i have it cut and dried.
the japanese buy it up as soon as its been felled as do the americans.
in actual fact the best musical grade stuff gets exported first and then re imported as prosessed parts (usualy marketed as bosnian maple by european sellers),
go figure.

your english walnut is probably grown in the states you use the term english walnut as a genric name for juglans regia.

the native stuff in the uk tends to be alot smaller and can be full of pin knots.
its tricky getting clear wood here becouse of our climate.
to be honest i often buy french stuff as there are good supplies of that localy at present.
it tends to be clearer than our native stuff also.

joel.

Joel, I've PMd you.

I have a good supply of English Walnut which came from a tree in Hampshire, it is wonderful stuff. I'm very keen on getting more British wood.

This guitar has London Plane binding and an English cherry neck.



Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin- that's one beautiful set of wood!!!!!!!!!


Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Colin- that's one beautiful set of wood!!!!!!!!!


Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

yes colin that a supurb set of the english stuff.

i am finding very hard to get and most of the dealers are charging high premiums for it (especialy if it has any figure)

we have some stunning native woods and i really want to make the more availble.
the london plane is stunning and much more showey than the american variaty.

if any one has any pics of english walnut or plane guitars i am sure we would all love to see them

Joel.

Joel,

Russell Rose made a guitar with London plane b/s for David Kilpatrick. I was looking in the archives here for a picture but couldn't find one. I've used it for the heel blocks of necks and if you have any suitable off-cuts I'd be interested in buying some:



If you ever get som nice figured Scottish sycamore with harp guitar sized cutting potential, let me know - I still think a cedar/maple harp-guitar and baritone guitar would work brilliantly.

I love English walnut:



And English cherry:



I don't know if you saw it but Arian Lucas had a British Wood guitar at Cheltenham last weekend, with Doglas Fir top (from a door) with Yew b's.

As for oak - don't forget the Fylde "Single Malt Ariel"

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I was offered a silver leaf maple log sometime back, as it was going to be pulled from the forest floor; but in the end it had rot in it due to unusual high levels of rain. BAH!!

Silver leaf maple can be used for necks, back and sides.

I have a chunk of London Plane, but it has some dark flecks of mould through the piece, so I might end up harvesting it for neck lams.

Elm is okay, but the general consensus is that it can be a little unstable, and quite porous.

I am looking forward to working with Douglas fir too.

Yew is acceptable, getting hold of large pieces can be hard due to the nature of the way the tree grows, and can be tricky to bend.

Pear is another acceptable tonewood; I vaguely recall Avalon guitars built a guitar out of pear a few years ago.

Joel, I am very interested in this latest venture. Hopefully when me wages come in, I'll be contacting you. Ideally I would love to build guitars out of native timbers, but as you said, it's a relatively neglected industry.

London plane

Here's Russell's London plane guitar. He sent me a lot of offcuts which I used for bindings and heel cap on the English walnut guitar I posted. This stuff is the perfect London plane.

Mike, I've only got another four sets of that walnut



Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Sam,

That's not London plane, that's the American version California sycamore (Platanus racemosa). If I'm not mistaken that's one of Paul Hostetter's H-13 guitars done with Santa Cruz based on the Nick Lucas models.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Seriously? It was labelled as London plane!

Terribly sorry, my mistake.

However the timber is strikingly identical to some local timber I have at home that was sold as "London Plane".

Colin,

that is beautiful. Thanks for finding it. There is something so graceful and clean in Russell's build style.

I miss Russell Rose's contribution to this forum.

Sam,

Yes, they are both Platanus or planes as Joel said. London Plane is a hybrid. You can see the exact photo you posted with details about the guitar here on Paul Hostetter's website.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

American and london plane are very closley related so they can look very simalar.

a couple of the sets from the last batch had large lace like the guitar shown some have a lot finer lace figure.

Dave i am sure i will have loads of off cuts knocking about for heals i will let you know.
has any one tried it for necks?

i am a little unsure as to whether its stable enough i suppose i am going to have to send freebies out to get a proper opinion on that one.
I try to keep test sets and components to a minimum but i usualy need at least two people to get an objective opinion.

sam as for pear i do stock it if i find a nice figured board (which come quite often) but it usualy comes from europe and is fact the wood from the service tree not true pear.

pear trees are quite small and like all fruit woods prone to instability.

apple is another option.
its a stunning wood but trees are small so backs would have to be three peice or boul cut.
but i would love to see an apple guitar its lovely fine textured wood.

dave the scottish sycmore does come up in boards more than big enough for harp guitars but as i said i have to pay for the stuff to get prioroty over other buyers.
the wood trade is a ficle trade and all about who will pay the most at the right time.

i am hoping to get some high grade stock this year.
Joel.

Joel why discount the oaks? QS English brown oak is a lovely wood. I think the brown color is caused by a fungus. At least I remember reading something to that effect. I have seen guitars built with it. In fact our own John How has built with it.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

London plane (Planatus acerifolia) has the same type of figure as your guitar, but the "flecks" are about 1/8" to 1/4" in size, and it is much lighter in colour. Its gorgeous!

This photo is typical of the stuff, from http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/ ... /index.htm, but he (being American), calls it "sycamore".



Joel.... talk to me !! I'd like some of that stuff.

Rod

Here's some London plane that I used as alternate stave to rosewood on an 8-course Heiber lute.



Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Yes its wonderfull stuff,
the lace does tend to be finer but if its bang in quarter you get wondrfull larger swirls.

For all the folks that have asked me for sets,
i sold my last couple about 10 mins after i put this post up but i have loads more availble.
I have a huge bone dry board that is next on my cutting list for guitar sets.
There may be a few uke sets as well.
This log was actualy sourced in london so its true london plane
If your interested drop me a pm.
so far i have 4 reserved the rest are available.

by the way london plane is pretty hard to source becouse its not forest grown.
it only grows in towns and city,s.
This means that when you do get the stuff it often has metal in it.
Oh well its such a nice wood worth seeking out,

Joel.

Hey Bob,

we get loads of brown oak here and i suppose that it would be ok it just i suppose i associate it with old furniture etc and have never really considered it for guitars.
i allways considered it a bit course grained.
Its not something i ever get asked for either.
sweet chestnut is a bit like oak but the medulary rays are smaller and its finer grained but it has a tendancy to twist which makes it unsuitable.

Oh well if someone asked me for oak i would find it for them but its not something i would go out of my way to source,

Joel

Interesting stuff.

I have never been attracted to our native Brown Oak; but I have seen some stunning guitars made of other Oak species.

Joel, what do you think about Elm as a tonewood, then?

Sam,
i my self have not been to attracted to our native brown oak buts thats probably becouse we are used to seeing used so much for furniyure and stair rails etc.
even the rail in the tube are brown oak.
i do like the burl though but our native burls are not suitable for even electric guitars becouse they tend to open up around the eyes.

as for elm,
my supplier loves it is allways trying to get me to cut it for guitar woods but its very heavy and not terably stable.
maybe i will give it a go one day in smal quantity,s.

laburnum looks promosing.
i have a guy who i get my box from who has i have just aquired three french walnut trees from who has three huge laburnums on his land which he is interested in felling.
it usualy a small tree and was used extensivly in the 19th century for inlay etc.
i know andy manson used to use for finger boards sometimes so i would like to try some back and side sets

Its a stunning wood with lovely dark heart wood and quite dense i think it could be a winner,

Joel.