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Hi everyone,
As some of you know, I'm trying to start a small internet Tonewood business, and I've just come upon a source for some highly figured (see pictures) salvaged, first growth old redwood. These logs had been sitting at the bottom of a mineral-rich river for more than 100 years and are now stable and dry.
My questions are, has anyone sold these type of tops? Are they considered a high end ticket? Do they sell well? Is the sound quality good? I know that Dennis Scannell of True North Guitars uses this type of wood and raves about redwood tops. Finally, is it worth a $500-$600 investment for 2 slabs that measure 1" x 20" in width x 6.5' in length?
Any and all imput would be greatly appreciated.

looks like some nice curl in them

It was my understanding that Dennis Scannell was using LS redwood. Certainly that commands a premium.

Doing a little rough back of the envelope thinking I bet you could get at least 12 1 piece tops for guitars and 8 1 piece uke tops.

If you got $50 each for the guitar tops that would be break even and the uke tops would be pure profit. I suspect that you could make a little money on this if the wood is all usable. And if you saw carefully you might even be able to get a better yeild.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

It's possible that you could end up with as few as 15 tops from a 6-foot 1x20. That could mean your cost for raw material (not counting labor to resaw the tops) would be $40 for each top. In terms of potential income to be made by reselling, this seems to me to be very expensive lumber unless you know for a fact that the wood is incredible tone-wise and can be sold as master-grade tops.

Ask some of the guys here that resaw softwoods if you can expect to get 4 slices or just 3 from 4/4 lumber.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Brock
You're right of course. That does make quite a bit of difference.
Great info.

Thanks Dennis, I will do that.

Hey Doug,

My experience is if a logger or salvager comes to you and says this is great stuff then it is probably just OK. Also from my experience you won't sell every set you cut, some just won't make the grade because of something inside (pin knots, pitch pocket, colour spots) that you just can't see until you cut it open. As for yeild, when everything is set up and running well I get 3 sets in 2 inches (that's six pieces for 3 bookmatched sets). I run fairly heavy bands though, the blade is .045 plus the set in the teeth. So I couldn't get 4 pieces out of a 1 inch board, but I would get 3. One piece tops 20 inches wide pose you another problem. To cut these you need to find a saw that will do the work. A band mill could do it, but I am running woodmizer bands and the guy who sharpens my bands runs .050 bands on his LT70 so his kerf will be slightly larger than mine. It's a gamble and when you get started I would try to keep my material cost low so that you get your system figured out but still have a bit of a margin to make a couple of dollars. Try talking him down in the price maybe.

You won't get rich doing this (I was told that before I started and it's true!) but it is fun to try and get the best out of the wood and tools you have and it will offset some of the guitar making costs.

Drop me a line if you need anything else Doug.

Hope this helps and good luck.

ShaneShane Neifer38608.6650462963

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Canada

plus with the curl in this redwood it all may be totally unusable for much
other than drop tops on electrics. With curly redwood some is great and
some the curl totally kills the structural integrity of the wood, and the
length wise stiffness is horrible. I have about 20 curly redwood tops in
the shop that are just this way. Look great but the length wise stiffness is
horrid. And Then I have about 10 sets that are fantastic.

I'd say that sounds expensive for that wood, bu you could probably break
even, or make a small amount of money on it... no where near as much as
the amount of time it would take sawing, sanding, and prepping.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Thank you all for your feedback. That is just the kind of stuff I wanted to hear. Honesty. I think I'm gonna pass on this and keep looking. It's a big internet out there and something will come along. If anyone knows a good supplier of tonewood and is willing to pass it on, I won't object.

I had a similar situation a few years ago. I got access to about 4-5 cord of Sitka Spruce logs that were between 38 and 52" in diameter and 18' long. THese were cut in the 30's and shipped outr to my area to be used as Boom logs on Lake Superior and lake nipigon. After spending over 60 years in the water they were piled up on shore and offered to me for the taking. Free wood sounds like a great deal eh? I took just one log home which gave me over 1000 BD/FT of wood. Problem was even though it was free and old and had the whole salvaged from the water thing going for them I decided it wasn't worth it and didn't go back for the rest. You hear lots of people talking about how much guys are selling water salvaged wood for but I think that these guys are selling it but very few people are willing to buy it at that price. By now the guy has probably just burned them all. The amount of work for it's returnm just wasn't worth it. I got lots of brace wood out of it and a number of good tops as well as selling a bunch to Arch top builders (still have more I need to cut up to sell) But it wasn't worth the work. So even though it seemedlike a good deal it really wasn't (although the one guitar I built with it so far turned out quite nice and sold quickly.)

Thanks Arvey,
I appreciate the imput. I gonna keep looking.

By the way, someone just told me that wood is still sitting there

Doug,
I can tell you from experience that it's a real shot in the dark. Sometimes you can do very well finding suitable lumber but you have to "eye-ball" it to find any defects. The down side is sometimes you won't see anything until you cut into the lumber and then you heart sinks when you do see some flaws.
The lumber guys do tell you the wood is great, the best they've ever seen, etc., etc., etc. Keep in mind that most of these guys are looking at the wood the way we do. They see the figure and then see $$$. All I can say is when in doubt get a small board to "test the waters" before you jump in with both feet.
Case in point: 7 years ago I bought 4 boards of old growth Brazilian rosewood. I paid $9,000 for all of the boards, yes $9,000. They looked good and I couldn't see any defects, knots, spikes, wormholes etc. By the time I finished with the wood, I had some great fingerboards and bridge blanks. The boards were loaded with defects. Horrible way to learn a lesson but again I would see if you can get a small billet first.
Hope this helps. Contact me if you have any questions.
Steve

Steve,
Thanks very much for your imput. Scared the heck out of me. I'm going to look at the wood I buy, then come back to my computer with pictures of a sample and ask the experts. ALL YOU GUYS!
All of you have been a great help to me in starting my business, and in building my guitars. I'm still building my website but when I'm done I will be more than happy to list anyone here with a hyperlink and a great recomendation on my site, if you ask.

Doug,

You are in Port Orchard, WA, and I wonder if that means you are in the land of quilted Maple, curly Maple, spalted Maple, Pacific Madrone, Myrtle...

Might be some other things close to home you can look for. I would check with tree removal companies in the area as well, though I have heard that Maples need to be taken down in late Fall to very early Spring or else they will have too much sugar and will stain. (Come to think of it, maybe that's just hard (sugar) Maple?)

Another thing to do is to try to find veneer log buyers in your vicinity. If they check out a log and find a problem with it (for making veneer), they may reject it. These "veneer rejects" are sometimes incredible wood. Ask the veneer log buyers to call you if they see a large diameter (20" or better) figured log that they have rejected.

You'll probably need to find someone with the capabilities of picking up and moving logs, as well as a sawyer to make those critical, precision cuts for you (perfectly flatsawn for quilted figure, perfectly quartersawn for everything else.) And, you'll need to become an expert at drying wood, and resawing luthier-quality sets from boards and billets.

You could limit yourself to starting from sawn lumber, but if you can get in at the tree level, you'll have more potential to make money (and of course, you'll wear more hats and work harder!)

Hope this helps,

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis,
That was just the type of info I was looking for. Thanks. I just posted another question about Alaskan Yellow Cedar. Found some real close, for what seems a great price, but I don't even know if it's used in guitar making. Any thoughts?
Yes I'm in the land of all the trees you mentioned, but I'm having trouble finding a source that I can afford. Seems everyone knows that maple, WRC and the rest are comanding a high price. But I'm determined, so I'll keep on looking.

[QUOTE=BlueSpirit] Dennis,
That was just the type of info I was looking for. Thanks. I just posted another question about Alaskan Yellow Cedar. Found some real close, for what seems a great price, but I don't even know if it's used in guitar making. Any thoughts?
Yes I'm in the land of all the trees you mentioned, but I'm having trouble finding a source that I can afford. Seems everyone knows that maple, WRC and the rest are comanding a high price. But I'm determined, so I'll keep on looking.[/QUOTE]

It's a tough business to crack without a lot of contacts and a considerable amount of operating capital. You might have an easier start if you do like BobC and a lot of these other guys do and cruise specialty lumber yards. I know there are 4-5 in WA and OR alone.

Log costs are pretty high. Like was mentioned before there are several log buyers/brokers who buy veneer logs at premium prices and then ship them off to the Italy, Germany, Korea, Japan or China for processing.

When you go buy logs your looking at thousands of dollars invested in the logs, then you have milling costs ($$), weeks to months in a kiln ($$), manufacuring costs ($$) and in any wood you have a substantial amount of downfall/garbage. Then you sit on the finished product until it sells.

I'm not trying to be negative, if anything I'd like to help get you going in the right direction. If you want to know any specifics or have a problem, pm me. We probably ran into it at some point ;)

_________________
CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy]
though I have heard that Maples need to be taken down in late Fall to very early Spring or else they will have too much sugar and will stain. (Come to think of it, maybe that's just hard (sugar) Maple?) [/QUOTE]

If there was sap running when the tree was fallen (tisk tisk) you have to process the wood very quickly or it will stain. Mid to late Summer through the Winter is your best time to be chasing maple or spruce.

Also I think someone mentioned sap running as part of wood checking? I don't think it's so much the sap running as the time of the year. Coincidentally when the sap is running it's also the hottest/sunniest time of the year. I think it's a combination of the water rushing out and the heat that cause the checking.

Any wood will check if left to the elements too long, it just happens a lot faster in the summer.

They both get a blue stain if left sitting green too long or left in the weather.

_________________
CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

Jason,
Yeah, I'm pretty much in a situation where my shop can only handle marginal stuff. 14" grizzly bandsaw and no drum sander. I am already checking out the lumber yards around here. Might have to take some longer trips though. Bob C already told me that I should find a place close to me, as the shipping could possibly eat all my profit. Good advice.
Thanks so much for your imput. And all the rest of you guys too. This IS the best forum on the internet.

Doug,
It isn't just the cost of the wood that you have to consider when buying lumber. The amount of work that has to go into cutting, prepping, marketing (ect.) and then there is the "unknown factor" of what you will probably find when cut. If everything works out perfectly (and it usually doesn't) on that deal you might make a little money on it but my bet is that when it was all sold you would look at your numbers and feel like you just got punched in the stomach. I think that if every builder could spend 6 months working with a quality tonewood vendor, he/she would have a respect for this side of the business like never before. You have to have a good formula for pricing your wood or you will be left feeling like you are spinning your wheels.

Brian you are spot on, I for one could not operate without the guys who supply me, they scout for wood when I have a hair brained idea to use something, or if I get an unusual request from a customer.

To give a couple of examples.

I was very excited when we found some pearwood good enough for backs and went to help saw it, we opened it up only to find that it was totaly unusable, yet it looked perfect in board form.

On another occasion we opened some logs of cedar to find the most amazing figure.

As my favourite supplier saws sometimes you start to saw something and you just want to walk away, other times you jump for joy.

[QUOTE=RussellR] Brian you are spot on, I for one could not operate without the guys who supply me, they scout for wood when I have a hair brained idea to use something, or if I get an unusual request from a customer.

To give a couple of examples.

I was very excited when we found some pearwood good enough for backs and went to help saw it, we opened it up only to find that it was totaly unusable, yet it looked perfect in board form.

On another occasion we opened some logs of cedar to find the most amazing figure.

As my favourite supplier saws sometimes you start to saw something and you just want to walk away, other times you jump for joy. [/QUOTE]

Other times your $300 high tension carbide blade breaks, firing pieces of steel and wood all over the room, chews the rubber off your 32" Aluminum saw wheels and scares you so bad your happy when they tell you it's going to take 2 weeks to vulcanize (put new rubber on) and rebalance your saw... Don't ask me why I know that one

_________________
CVT Inc.
A tour of our shop (Somewhat outdated)
My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

Doug,

I am working on a yellow cedar supply also. The most common use for yellow cedar in luthiery is for backs and sides on flamenco negras (light coloured flamenco guitars). It is a cypress. I want to cut some for a guitar I want to build for a friend. So you will need 24 inchish pieces for backs and 36 inchish pieces for sides.

Shane

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Canada

Shane
All he had was 2x4's.

Jason

That don't sound like fun at all, I was reading something, I don't remember where, but they where talking about hitting resin pockets inside rosewood, aparently this just shatters whatever blade they are using and causes everyone to run for cover.