Official Luthiers Forum!

I went To Japan a little over a year ago and was shown a very small, very packed tool shop in Kyoto. Every kind of hand tool imaginable. He had a similar set of chisels for sale that were for making one specific kind of joint in traditional house building. I ended up buying a Ebony handled paring chisel for $140, four water stones for about $275, and a small hammer I did'nt need. He had a large natural stone for sale that was well over $3000, I did'nt come home with that one... I have to say getting on a plane with a backpack full of "rocks" was interesting.

It's kind of amusing for me to read some of these posts, since many of my custom knives sell for over $1000 on the secondary market. Are they worth it? No, but usefulness isn't always the measure of a product; pride of ownership counts for a lot to some. Thank God for egos - they keep me in business.

As for the chisels, a low alloy steel at Rc65 will be excessively brittle, and from some consulting work I did with people in the woodworking industry a couple years ago, brittleness is the primary reason chisel (and most other wood-cutting) edges fail. Modern steels, like some I use in my knives, will hold an edge in any chisel application for a whole lot longer. They are also better for planer blades for the same reason. Soft woods and hard woods often have different needs in edge geometry, though the same steels generally work for both. Soft woods benefit from a finer (smaller included angle) edge for cleaner cuts, while hard woods demand a heavier more durable edge for best wear resistance.

Just a note on chisel edge geometry (same is true with knives), if you round over the shoulder at the top of the edge bevel so the bevel is more convex in shape, the chisel will cut a LOT more smoothly, be easier to control, and have less tendancy to dig in.

Pretty chisels though...

I was wondering when we would hear from you on this.    I knew you would have something fun to say.

Just for the record, I didn't say necessarily that they were overpriced... I have no idea what it takes to make chisels like this... but I was amused by a set of 2200 chisels... half the time I can't find my tools and spend a half hour looking for them (they always turn up...)    there is no way I should have anything more expensive than your "average" nice chisels. :-)

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'm the same way Brock. I don't even carry one of my own knives when I go hunting. I can't afford one. I use a cheap old factory knife that gets the job done and won't be an emotion meltdown if I lose it.

If you were to buy an equivalent set of custom damascus knives from one of the top knifemakers, you'd probably pay about the same. Once someone puts "master" on either side of their name, it usually means "expensive".

I have a set of old Craftsman chisels that I bought 30+ years ago. I have no idea where they were made but they work pretty good.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] Modern steels, like some I use in my knives, will hold an edge in any chisel application for a whole lot longer. They are also better for planer blades for the same reason.

Just a note on chisel edge geometry (same is true with knives), if you round over the shoulder at the top of the edge bevel so the bevel is more convex in shape, the chisel will cut a LOT more smoothly, be easier to control, and have less tendancy to dig in.
[/QUOTE]

So, Jerry...to what kind of steel are you referring? Is it oil, air, water hardening? Where can we get the raw stock?

I've been trying the convex bevel on a couple of chisels and double-bevel straight knives, and so far I'm finding that the edges hold up longer. They don't seem as sharp, though, but I think that may improve as my free-hand sharpening technique does (still don't have one of those small-belt machines). Thanks for the suggestion.

Harbor Freight often has their little 1 x 30" sander on sale for $30. It's my favorite sharpening tool. You can get fine grit and leather belts from Lee Valley. I typically end up at 15 microns (~1200 grit) then go to the leather belt with fine Aluminum Oxide (white compound). For knives, it rocks. I don't know much about chisels and planer blades, except that the people I worked with loved the convex edges on their chisels.

The steel that outperformed all others in the chisel and planer blade testing was CPM-3V. It's a very tough and fine grained alloy, but it's a bit tricky to heat treat. On paper it's air hardening (8% Chromium), but that really doesn't work very well, and an interrupted oil quench is recommended. It hardens at 1950F and the key is quenching it below 1000F in a very few seconds. If you want to try it, I can give you the contact information for the heat treater I use. He's a little expensive for one-off's though.

The steel's available from Crucible Steel at their Dallas distribution center. (800-365-1168) Ask for Scott Devanna (he's the manager there), and tell him I sent you and that you should get a GOOD price. Sometimes that works, and sometimes he charges more.

BTW Carlton, if you're using a slack belt for that convex edge, you might be rounding over the edge a little, especially with the finest grits where the belts are most flexible. It takes a little practice, but not a lot, and once you get the feel for it, there's just nothing faster or better, IMHO. Jerry Hossom38612.7994097222

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] BTW Carlton, if you're using a slack belt for that convex edge, you might be rounding over the edge a little, especially with the finest grits where the belts are most flexible. It takes a little practice, but not a lot, and once you get the feel for it, there's just nothing faster or better, IMHO. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info, Jerry. That steel sounds a little high-end for a beginner like me. I want to try my own heat-treating eventually, so I guess I'll start with some more generally available stock.

I remember you mentioning that Harbour Freight sander before, and it's on my short list. Right now I'm doing the convex bevel with sandpaper on granite. You're right about rounding the edge. Like anything, it takes practice, and with each sharpening, I'm getting a little better edge.

Hmm... I wonder if this is where the derogatory word "chisler" comes from . I'm perfectly happy with my blue handled Marples for general work and the Robert Sorby paring chisels for brace carving, tho the Sorbys don't keep an edge near as well as the marples.

You might want to try A2 steel, Carlton. It's a fairly tough, air-hardening steel that is used in some of the better after-market planer blades.

It is toughest at Rc59-60, which means a tempering temperature of 500F. Hardening temperature is 1775F. Cryogenic quenching will give you another point of hardness and improve toughness a little.

[QUOTE=Paul Schulte] I'm perfectly happy with my blue handled Marples for general work and the Robert Sorby paring chisels for brace carving, tho the Sorbys don't keep an edge near as well as the marples.[/QUOTE]

Hi Paul, I have got some Sorby long paring chisesls too, and I wish I didn't! They will not take nor hold an edge very well. I also have some paring chisels from Henry Taylor, and I like them much better. The blades are somewhat shorter and don't flex (unlike the Sorbys), but at least they get quite sharp. I wish I could find some old Erik Anton Berg paring chisels somewhere...

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I have a Robert Sorby 1" paring chisel, which I can't keep sharp to save my life. I'm planning to someday save for a nice set of Japanese chisels, the few I've used were really great.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] It's kind of amusing for me to read some of these posts, since many of my custom knives sell for over $1000 on the secondary market. Are they worth it? No, but usefulness isn't always the measure of a product; pride of ownership counts for a lot to some. Thank God for egos - they keep me in business.

As for the chisels, a low alloy steel at Rc65 will be excessively brittle, and from some consulting work I did with people in the woodworking industry a couple years ago, brittleness is the primary reason chisel (and most other wood-cutting) edges fail. Modern steels, like some I use in my knives, will hold an edge in any chisel application for a whole lot longer. They are also better for planer blades for the same reason. Soft woods and hard woods often have different needs in edge geometry, though the same steels generally work for both. Soft woods benefit from a finer (smaller included angle) edge for cleaner cuts, while hard woods demand a heavier more durable edge for best wear resistance.

Just a note on chisel edge geometry (same is true with knives), if you round over the shoulder at the top of the edge bevel so the bevel is more convex in shape, the chisel will cut a LOT more smoothly, be easier to control, and have less tendancy to dig in.

Pretty chisels though... [/QUOTE]

Jerry, I've always wanted a jade handled knife. If you supply the blade, I'll make the handle. Is it a deal?


Steve

Nice work, Steve. I did a jade one once. It's old. I haven't used this mark in about 5 years.

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] You might want to try A2 steel, Carlton. It's a fairly tough, air-hardening steel that is used in some of the better after-market planer blades. [/QUOTE]

Thanks, Jerry.

Woodworking magazines in the past few months have been raving about the new Lie-Nielsen chisels, saying they can reach almost as sharp an edge as the brittle Japanese steel, but hold an edge longer and with less chipping. They also prefer L-N's heftier wood handles. The Lie-Nielsens are $50.00 apiece, regardless of size, and, say the reviewers, will be your go-to tool for just about any chiseling job. Like most of L-N's tools, they're based on an old Stanley model.

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] Nice work, Steve. I did a jade one once. It's old. I haven't used this mark in about 5 years.

Beautiful stuff, Jerry. What do you do about sheaths for these? Sheaths 'r us?

Steve