Official Luthiers Forum!

It being that time of a Friday evening here in England, I was doing my usual "surfing" of guitar building sites with a nice cool glass of white Rioja in hand. I came across a post on the MIMF forum about maple tops for acoustic guitars that contained the phrase . . .

" . . . a 2x4 from Home Despot will make a better top than any piece of maple. It's just a fact, not an opinion."

Now I have a maverick streak (comes from my Mother's side) and I found this interesting and "challenging". For the 3rd guitar I made, I had some small pieces of nice old Rio, and a block of sycamore (that's maple here in the UK, what you Americans call Sycamore is similar to London plane we have here) I had bought from the local wood hobby store. Being very naive in guitar making and unencumbered by any form of "tradition" and having been reading Ken Hoadley's great book "Understanding Wood" where in one of his tables sycamore had a very similar reading to Spruce (I think it may have been density), a light-bulb came on in my head and I decided to make a travel guitar with 4 piece Sycamore top and old Rio B/S. The guitar has a scale length of 605mm (23.8") and is the one one the left:



I just love the sound of this guitar, it has a loud voice, great sustain, good string balance and a "harp like" sound that makes it great for playing in open tunings such as DADGAD.

So my question to you experienced OLF'ers to help me form my "opinion" a little more into "fact". Have any of you had experience with maple/sycamore topped guitars? Maybe it's a size thing and works well in small scale but not larger. It's on my ever growing "to do" list

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

The small size may have something to do with it. You said it has a "harp-like" sound, too...that and the small size tells me that it doesn't really have a lot of bass, and the small body guitar doesn't produce very much anyway. But if you used a top like that on a bigger guitar that is supposed to produce bottom end, you might hear a big loss in bass.
The guy who posted the question on MIMF was a newbie. You, on the other hand, know something about how to thickness a top to get the proper stiffness and tap tone from it. I think he would have learned the most by using something that was more of a standard tonewood, it would show him how and what we are looking for in a top. I also think that the maple we have around here is heavy and will dampen vibration better than it can conduct it!

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Very nice pair of guitars Dave, I have never tried it, but would be interested on the response on a larger body.

Dave, Sycamore ( Acer pseudoplatanus) has a density of about 600kg/m3 about the same as Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) and we all know how good some of those old Martin mahogany topped guitars can sound. I see no reason why a nice straight grained bit of sycamore, correctly braced and progressively edge thinned, shouldn't make a good top. Certainly worth a try on a 000 size guitar, but may take time to open up.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

From what I've seen, there are two problems with building hardwood topped guitars. The first is that it is very difficult to get enough acoustic volume from them for playing with other musicians in a group setting. The other is that they don't produce the same tone that turns on the little light in people's heads -- you know, that little neon one that says, "guitar."

A hardwood topped guitar is never going to compare well to a spruce-topped guitar when the educated "ideal" in someone's head is the sound of a spruce topped guitar. That's why you sometimes hear people tossing out opinions such as the 2x4 remark that Dave cites.

If you're trying to make a living selling guitars you can't ignore that factor. But volume isn't always the primary goal and hardwoods can hold their own when it comes to producing sweet tone.

Some of the most intelligent words I've heard on the topic of using hardwood for tops have come from Mr. Al Carruth, who I hope will chime in here regarding the stiffness and density factors that must be considered in the build process.

Meanwhile you can read some of his comments in this Google Groups thread.

_________________
D..

If you've ever heard one of Martin's mahogany topped guitars you'll know that hardwoods (a bit of an erroneaus name as Balsa is a hardwood) can make excellent "guitar" sounding instruments. Properly made, and Dave White is a very good builder, I see no reason that he couldn't make a great sounding Acer pseudoplatanus (English sycamore) topped guitar. Whether the stick in the mud guitar buying public, brought up on a diet of Martin clones, would buy it is a different matter entirely.

With my background, I'm a great believer in the scientific approach, if properly followed through and argued, however sometimes the empirical is worth exploring.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Dennis,

Thanks for the link. The breadth and depth of Alan's knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Colin,

Thanks for this - don't know that I'm that good a builder yet, but this has got me thinking . . . and I'll put up another post now about an "English" guitar.

I think Dennis has a point about the selling part though. Mahogany topped guitars are viewed with suspicion even though they can be fabulous, and I suspect this would have to be pitched for a small, adventurous group of buyers - hey that sound like me . I remember Alan Carruth relating the difficulty he had selling an oak b's guitar even though it sounded great.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

My fifth guitar was a maple topped mahogany venetian cutaway. I made it with a thin body for stage use, and played it most of the time plugged in.

however it did sound pretty darn good on it own. Back when I made it, I remember being inspired by the Carvin company`s thin body acoustics.

as traditional as I am in my building style, I would`nt rule using a maple top again sometime.

Matt