Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi again,

I wanted to thank the 10 or so users that posted replies to my first post last week about headstock tuner hole placement. Not only was the info exactly what I needed, you are all turning out to be just about the most polite and receptive people I've ever encountered on any online forum.

My quest for knowledge today involves two things. First, I'm looking for the shiniest, toughest, clearest and most cost-effective electric guitar clear coat. I am setting up a repair/customization shop, and I haven't decided on which clear coat to go with... either lacquer, poly or water-based spray finish, or an automotive 2 part poly. I have spray equipment purchased and have used spray lacquer (in cans) in the past, but I'm going for an extremely durable, shiny clear coat that I can buff to a mirror gloss. If it helps, I am located in Texas along the Gulf Coast, and it is quite humid most of the year here.

My second bit of info I seek is to ask you more experienced builders/woodworkers for your must-have tools or accessories for a person like me that is just setting up a shop. Do you wish you'd designed the shop around the spray room? Would you go with one table saw over another? Any tips or suggestions will certainly be applied to my new work shop. I am not quite ready skill-wise to build guitars for others from scratch - until I get there, my focus is on repair and customizing stock guitars (and completing my first guitar build).

Thanks in advance - Carl from Texas

All I can offer is this: 1) don't go cheap with the bandsaw, and 2) get a second router and a router table.

_________________
Bad decisions make for good stories.
-------John


My blog - http://poplarmechanics.blogspot.com/

Carl welcome to the OLF!!

My personal favorite finish is Cat Poly and I outsource my finishing to Joe White who is a member of this forum and will hopefully weigh-in here. Poly is also what Taylor Guitars uses and it is very tough, shiny if you wish, super clear and probably not all that expensive when one amortizes the start-up costs over many guitars. I have worked with lacquer, French polish, Cat urethane, and Joe's Poly finishes and the poly finishes are by far the toughest that I have encountered.

As for your first big must have tool purchase if I was to do this all over again it would be a great bandsaw. You will get lots of different answers here but for guitar building if that is your end-game a good bandsaw will be something that you greatly appreciate. I went for some years without owning a table saw and now that I have one it never gets used but some builders will use a table saw frequently so it depends on your particular style of building. If you have a plan for how you are going to learn to build guitars and that plan includes some formal study with someone else or at a Lutherie school I would suggest that you contact the school or Luthier and ask them which tool they depend on the very most. It's possible that what your future mentor's answer is will in time mirror your own needs here. Just a thought.

Also we have lots of members from Texas and maybe they will weigh-in here and perhaps offer you a shop tour.

So you want the perfect high gloss finish. Well the next question is how much are you willing to invest in safety gear, spray room equipment and learning. The finish that best meets what you seek is catalyzed polyurethane but it uses Cobalt and other very harsh chemicals and requires very good PPE (personal protection equipment) and a well designed spray booth.

Next down the line in my opinion is nitrocellulose lacquer. And while toxic and flammable can be sprayed with common spray equipment and out side in a sheltered area or in a well ventilated shop.

There really is no one perfect finish. Each has it own individual characteristics. All have good and bad attributes. So you task is to research what will work with your best budget, individual needs and experience.

If you're not resawing wood yet, get a router first. And possibly a thickness sander. Certainly for acoustic guitars.

For electrics, the order is router, then bandsaw.

I don't want to sound like I am disputing Michael Payne, or the others for that matter, but I think the hardest clear finish you can get anywhere is a polyester based finish. Think fiberglass resin. All the urethanes and polyurethanes are more akin to epoxy resin and has some elasticity to it. I personally think that is a good thing, but I know others disagree.

There are also some catalyzed lacquers that are very durable and many of them are of the vinyl persuasion.

Mike

No problem at all Mike! Besides you could not be disputing me anyway because I never claimed anything to be the hardest you can get anywhere in the first place. In the second place I actually miss spoke/wrote as I was thinking of polyester but wrote polyurethane.

I've heard/read it said that the harder and more rigid the finish, the less the wood is able to vibrate. This in turn alters the tone that the wood passes on through the strings.

Then again, tone is 100% subjective. Maybe you wouldn't be able to hear the difference, or for your playing style it wouldn't matter anyway.

One thing I can say for sure is that wood moves... period. It will expand and contract through the seasons. If your finish is too rigid, it has a greater potential to not move with the wood and crack instead. Just food for thought.

_________________
Bad decisions make for good stories.
-------John


My blog - http://poplarmechanics.blogspot.com/

All finishes alter the tone of any stringed instrument. All finishes in one degree or another dampen vibration. Thickness of the film, the make up of the solids all play a part

Michael thanks for not torching me!

John isn't it funny about what we hear? I have heard that a flexible finish will kill the resonance of even an electric body. I don't really believe it, because of the fact so many manufacturers now use some sort of urethane. Then again, on my real products, I don't have to worry about deading the sound!

I do wonder if anyone has done an actual acoustic lab test to find where the truth lies?

Mike

There's so much tone voodoo floating around out there......

Personally, I seriously doubt you'd be able to hear an appreciable difference from one finish to another.

_________________
Bad decisions make for good stories.
-------John


My blog - http://poplarmechanics.blogspot.com/

Every part of construction makes a difference, including finish. Whether that difference is audible or even measurable is a completely different issue

Mattia if a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it, would it make a sound?

Mike

My favorite clear for electric guitars is acrylic urethane (automotive finish) - it's really tough, fairly easy to apply and buffs to a really high gloss. It also is flexible - less likely to check under temp changes. I have not really noticed a difference in brands very much (other than price!) I usually go with dupont,though. They have different reducers available - I've found the medium reducer to work best for me. (ALWAYS stay with the same brand product - do not use ppg reducer with dupont urethane for example) And always test a scrap piece if you are using stains or base colors - I had a beautiful amber stain on a top turn pink once while using a catalyzed lacquer product - That's never happened with a urethane, but an ounce of prevention.... Hope that helps, good luck! - Joe

I'm usually pretty skeptical about this type of stuff, but I'll vouch 100% for the fact that you can hear the difference between finishes. Case in point: PRS hollowbody electrics. When I was at PRS I got to play some of the thinly finished satin finish hollow bodies v/s the gloss hollowbodies. The satins definitely had more sustain. On an acoustic I think the difference is even more substantial since the finish actually forms a significant part of the thickness of the top. Some of the more brittle finishes actually add some stiffness - and hence, added to the treble response of the instrument.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com