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I am just sick.

Was building a beautiful 000 with EI rosewood, adirondack and snakewood appointments.

Body was all done and came out really well.

Installing snakewood bindings and purflings and using Cyano to spot weld the bindings. Once the top bindings were done, wicked in the cyano using good amount.

Some bumps with the top bindings but not really bad, can finesse a little and hide the gaps.

So far so good but then had a tough time fitting up the bottom bindings and started to remove one side of the binding to make some corrections.

In the process, looked inside the body to see how it was going and to my surprise, Cyano all over the darn place. On the sides, on the back and even on the soundboard.

Apparantly my liberal use of the cyano was not the right way to go. I guess I gave new meaning to the word "wick"

To much to try and scrape it all assembled so made the bad decision to remove the back. Should have quit for the night and thought about it.

Cut all the kerf lining with a saw so no problem there but when working on the heel and neck block area, things went very wrong and broke the back.

NOW - with the back at least off, I am looking at this mess and thinking time to scrap the project - mark it up to experience and start over.

I realize I can repair it all but thinking it will be as much work as starting over and making a new body. And with the thought of scraping the insides down, replacing the kerf linings for the back and then the kerf linings for the top are all cyano all over the place.

Afraid a bad thing will just get worse.

After considering all of my options like kicking the dog, biting off the wife's head, smashing all the wood in site and getting drunk - thought it a better idea to vent on OLF and look for some sympathy. (ha ha)

OK, I'm all better now - will start again tomorrow!!

Geez, this hobby is really relaxing.

OK, there is a question in all of this - a learning opportunity:

The snakewood bindings are pretty thick and a real challenge to bend to perfection. Had similar problem with other hardwood bindings in the past. Used heating blanket with bending jig and form. Still, always a challenge to get them perfect. In the future considering making the bindings much thinner - maybe half the thickness they are now and then including a thin black flexible binding like composite. Seems like it would give the same end result but with a more flawless binding. Any thoughts?

Scrape the sides, then sand the surface of the bindings till the gloss and CA color is gone and do not scrap the body, (unless there is something else wrong) Remember that the mark of a great craftsman is how well he gets out of trouble, not whether he gets into trouble.

yeah...

a tiny drop of CA goes a long way with that method.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

You're obviously into the linings with your binding chanel. Which is not a bad thing, unless you are using thin CA. Yes, I've done the same thing. I would venture a guess that many of us have.
I would suggest, if you are deep into the linings, to glue them with something thick like Titebond or LMI white glue. It's a whole lot cleaner. then after you've scraped them clean, you can go in and very carefully dab med or thick CA into any voids.

I did the same on my first. Tip I got (that I didn't bother with, since this guitar ain't ever leaving my posession) was to coat the inside of the back/sides with a wash of shellac, which should disguise the rather god-awful mess the stuff makes.

If you make your binding the same thickness as the sides, or just a hair less, you will avoid cutting into the the kerfs if all goes well. This is better no matter what glue you use as it will find its way into the kerfs if they are exposed to the bindig channel, and it's boring work to clean it up after the fact (espesically if you put on the back last ). Arnt38636.2250462963

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

   I got to see a few of the first guitars to be done using that CA bleeding method in the shop of one of the guys who is credited with its inception by many. He's a great builder and is very well known. We had talked about it for months before he actually committed to giving it a try on finished guitar bodies and I happened to be there for a short visit the day he had taped the bindings and purflings in place for the glue to be dropped in.

My initial thoughts were of the glue wicking into the grain of the top along the binding ledges as it was dripped in, but he he had covered that base by sealing the ledges prior to taping in the bindings.

   Then my concern was with the lack of adjustability as the process progresses around the body. It's all too common as we work our way around the perimeter to find at least one small length that has fought and won against the tape and created a gap that needs to be addressed and closed. The CA glue and its lightening fast close time just doesn't afford that window for adjustment during the process. He said that he had covered that base by using a mixture of the very thin and the medium viscosity CA glues that gave him just a few seconds more adjustment time before it set up and also retained the gap penetration of the thin stuff closely.

   Well, he started to drip the glue in moderately and as he did it just appeared to be going away far to quickly for my comfort, but he assured me that it was just wicking in along the back of the bindings and between all of the purflings pieces.

   After completing the first body, he was right where you found yourself with CA glue everywhere inside the guitar as we looked into the soundhole. That guitar had beautiful Zircote back and sides and nice clean Adirondack top and he just walked over and calmly dropped it into his dumpster. I asked why and he just said that it would be easier and quicker for him to build another body than to deal with so much CA to clean up. It had run all over the back and along the sides and had lapped up against edges of top and back braces as the body was turned and twisted to drip the glue and monitor its disppearing into the lines everywhere.

He's gone on to thin his bindings a little and use slightly thicker sides to eliminate the condition that allowed it to happen which was breaking through the sides in the the kerfed ribbon linings. He still uses and advocates its use and gets great results now. I'm glad he was able stay so calm and learn from it, but I'm also glad that I saw it before trying the whole thing for myself.

   I just don't trust that thin glue and still put all of my bindings on using LMI's white glue. It allows for a good amount of time as I set the binding in place working around the body and also dries nice and hard. I also still use tape initially and then wrap the entire body with the same long cotton cords tht Martin has used for a century. The cord technique is one that has been used by classic builders for several hundred yaears and really allows you to pull extremely high clamping presuure in all directions on the body while not marking the bindings at all.

I'm sorry to hear that you went through such a disappointing thing, but I'm sure you'll turn this guitar into a fine player in spite of it.

Those builders who are getting good results bleeding the CA glues into those binding and purfling gaps...Kudos to you! That day just scared me enough to stay where I wasand to just get faster with time and numbers with that old technique.

A small drop of CA glue can damage a very large piece of wood...and very quickly.

All the best in getting it back in shape,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I prefer to use either LMI white or Titebond for the bindings. I used CA on my resonator project recently, but it was the medium stuff. Even with that, it can dry quickly and create a bump of glue between the wood and the binding. Don't use accelerator until the whole thing is glued and taped, or it will cause the premature hardening of any CA glue it make contact with.
Cotton rope-nice idea. Even synthetic stuff like what Mike Doolin uses - for boat lines - is a pretty good idea.

I think, since you have the back off, you should try to see if you can clean up the inside. If it takes too long, then move on, but give it a try.
Sorry to hear about it, but we can all learn something here.


Don Williams38636.3200115741

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks for you post Kevin and to all of you who have posted comments. Feeling a little better this morning with the realization that I am not the only one who learned this the hard way. Thinking I might try to salvahe this some day but kind of agreeing with your guy that it might be easier to just start over. The cyano wicked into the soundboard kerf linings and now having to deal with the broken top - think I will be happier to cut my losses and start over. Will post a picture to show everyone what to look out for.

Good learnings from your post. I like the idea of using a thinner binding to match the thickness of the sides which seems like it might make bending a good bit easier as well.

Also, tend to agree with you and Don that it might make more sense to return to white glue or tightbond which is what I have used in the past. Little more forgiving. I did run into other problems that you mentioned resulting from the fast dry of cyano. In a couple of areas where I had a gap - once you drop the cyano in - you're done. End result, less than perfect joint which shows like a sore thumb once finished unless you spend a good amount of time fixing it up.

I have a question that is puzzling me. I have attempted to rope the bindings in the past and wonder if I am doing it right.

Do you install all the bindings and then rope or do you install one side at a time and rope?

Thought I have seen pics where both sides completed with white glue and then roped but when I tried that approach was concerned that by the time I got the second half done, the first half was already set up.

I have used thin CA for all my bindings and purflings. I have ran into your problem only once. It was because I simply used too much glue!
It was my first run at it and I had no idea how much to use. Since then I have never had a problem. I use the clear 3M 622 1/2 X 60 yard tape and I always use a Stewmac pipette.

The key is to lay the glue out next to the seam and allow the seam to (wick) the glue in.
After doing the top edge I turn the guitar on its side and do the other edge.
After an hour I remove the tape and re apply just for added insurance.
This tape is very strong and will allow you to pull the bindings VERY tight and unless you have a bad bend or fit your bindings should lay in gapless.
Mark Blanchard once told me and I quote "I think the key to nice binding work is making sure that everything fits PERFECTLY before you reach for the glue bottle!!"
Great advise!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I seem to remember a thread ,perhaps at Deb Surans forum, where some people had actually used CA as a finish on the guitar. I don't know how much CA actually puddled into the back , top and sides but another approach would have been to use some high strength magnets and sand it off from the outside. I did just that with a mando that had a lot of black nitro sprayed into the f-holes. Got it nice and clean. I definitely wouldn't scrap the body. Is the guitar for you or a commission? If for you, then getting the interior super clean doesn't really matter as far as losing any money goes. Unless of course you are going to grab a mirror and show everyone that comes in contact with the instrument the interior. I think Kinnard made a good point...it's fixing the mistake...but also I think it's about how crazy you want to get over something like this. I have had my share of blunders ( anyone remember the ceiling fan I held my a commissioned build up to?). So relax, smile, and go back to having fun. It really won't mean much 50 years from now ( or less).

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I have been using the method of taping the bindings in place and then wrapping the guitar with a material called Twill tape. It is cotton braided rope that is found in the collar of rugby shirts. You can find it at fabric stores. You will need about 100 feet. Any tiny gaps you may have missed while taping can be remedied with the wrapping method. Do the bindings on both the left and right side of either the top or back and then wrap it. After 45 minutes unwrap and do the other side.   

Rich,
   I glue the binding on the top and back to both sides and then go to wrapping the cord around it. As long as your bindings and purflings are bent accurately and you've run a dry test fitting, you should be able to get them in place around the entire perimeter of the top or back and get the cord to pull everythign very tight before the glue is fully set.

   Even after 15 or 20 minutes, the white glue from LMI is still pliable enough to allow you squezzed any gaps closed for a great result.

   Even in moderation, I can't bring myself to trust the CA glue method fully. One small bleed area and the time involved to erase it from the inside of the guitar far outweighs the additional time that the white glue method takes.

   I agree also that reversing a mistake with as little evidence as possible is a skill that any craftsman needs to develop, but learning from our mistakes and our experience can really help us to avoid the same ones or even similar ones in the future.

   "Measure twice before you cut once." and "Experiment several times before you commit." are two things that my grandfather said many times in his shops as I grew up watching him create beautiful furniture and cabinets in the wood shop and machine parts, jigs abd fixtures of steel for his and lots of other businesses in the metal shop.

   Clean that one up this time and you'll likely never have to clean up another. Enjoy the experience, though.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I've only done it once, and loved it so much, that I'll be using the CA method from now on. Here are some things I do to make sure no CA wicks into the guitar:
1. Don't cut your channels too deep, so you leave some of your binding proud of the sides. This way you won't have many gaps in the kerfed linings.
2. If you have any holes where CA can drip into the guitar, put a pencil mark on the top where the gap is so you know not to put too much in this spot.
3. Use 24" quick grips to clamp the binding tight, drop CA, wait a minute, then release and move 2", repeat all the way around. This way you are clamping tight before dropping the CA, and you can inspect the joint. Good luck!
Tracy

Well I figured out one problem I have always had when using wood bindings. Feel like such a dumb ass. I have never thinned my bindings before. Always assumed the thickness was the correct or spec thickness. Have always had problems with bindings cracking during bending and never great success. Always wrestling with poor fit and such.

Well through this post, someone mentioned thinning the bindings to the thickness of the sides. I did that last night and holy cow!!!! They bent perfectly, no cracks and great fit that will allow me to achieve what I am shooting for. So for all my fellow amateurs - think those wooden bindings down before bending - save yourself a lot of grief.

Thanks to all