Official Luthiers Forum!

How many use this thin brace between the neck block and upper transverse brace? I read somwhere some time ago that this is considered redundant and is a tone robber and that there was some rationale to not use it. In fact, there was a luthier on the UMGF forum who removed this brace as part of his service to improve the tone of Martins. Aside from voiding the warranty, I was wondering about the long-term structural effects due to its removal.

I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of those in the know. Let the debate begin!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ, it is my understanding that this brace is installed to minimize the chance of a crack developing in the soundboard along the edge of the fingerboard. Ebony moves a lot more than spruce, for example, and what often happens, especially with classicals, is that a crack develops in the soundboard right at the edge of the fingerboard.

I dunno just how effective this brace is, to be honest. It just doesn't seem to be all that efficacious, but lots of folks do it.

I also don't think that a crack, if it does appear there, affects the sound at all. Over 30 years ago, I bought a top-of-the-line Jose Ramirez 1a classical. Despite using a Damp-it, and keeping it in anything but a dry environment, the guitar had developed a crack in the soundboard at the edge of the fingerboard. 30 years later, it hasn't moved at all. And it never had an effect on sound.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Upper transvers grafts, as apposed to upper transvers braces. I use one because my neck block does not have an flange to support the fretboard extension. I do it just as a bit of extra meat there. I started using them following Compaino's teaching in his book. I am about to redesign my neck block to include a flange just a bit wider than the fretboard. I am doing this to incorroperate a bolt down fretboard extension. Once I complete the design I will not use upper transvers grafts, but will continue to use a upper transvers brace. but I would have to say that they probably don't rob much because they are at the area of the top with not much movement.

Go to http://luthiersforum.3element.com/pages/jig_tools_tech/jigs_ images/fretting/hank_block.JPG

and see how to do a neck block with a support tongue that eliminates the need for the "popsicle" brace and completely supports the top out beyond the edges of the fingerboard to avoid any splitting/cracking as the dissimilar woods move.

Hank, I tried that link on three browsers and it doesn't work.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Try this

http://luthiersforum.3element.com/pages/jig_tools_tech/hank_ mauel_neck_block.htm

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Thanks, Bob   that worked.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I have never used one and have not had any cracks in my tops in 13 years. Although I do use a (laminated 5 ply Spruce & Mahogany) neck block with a FB extension.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

    I used to use the standard Popsicle brace. I have since modified it to about 1/2 the width just to support the area for cracking.
     THere is alot of stress here over time and I know Bryan kimsley pops them out. I can't tell that much difference but I do like the idea of lossing some mass that isn't needed. The popsicle brace Ala Martin is a tad over sized as it is a warantee issue for them

On my last two guitars, i switched to an A brace. In this brace the two sound hole braces run under the upper transvers brace and are inlet into the neck block. This bracing makes it impossible to put in a popsicle brace and replaces it's function.

In general, everything above the soundhole is purely structural. Removing the popsicle brace on Martins to improve their sound is probably a waste of time.

Removing the popsicle brace on Martins to improve their sound is probably a waste of time.

So, you've done A-B comparisons of before and after brace removals?

Didn't think so....

All who've had it removed hear a new brightness to certain notes, more specifically, the top end. there's energy in the neck, and if you can lighten the upper bout, that energy can make its way to the soundboard....

Besides, with all the cracked guitars -with- pop braces, it's obvious it doesn't do that job well, either.

Ve haf better vays to prevent cracking....

Mario...can you elaborate on the better ways to prevent cracking?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

So, you've done A-B comparisons of before and after brace removals?

Didn't think so....

Well, I did say probably
Your're right, I haven't. My tone memory is terrible. In the time it takes me to change strings, I've forgotten what the guitar used to sound like. I'm well aware that differences that I can't hear may still be there so I'll defer to your experience.

In interresting, albeit expensive, experiment would be to take two same model guitars (ex. D-18) and have a bunch of players/listeners listen to the guitars, take whatever notes they wish. Then remove both guitars and remove the popsicle brace from one of them. Return both guitars to listening panel and have them guess which guitar was modified. The guitar to be modified would be determined by a toss of the coin and the luthier who did the work would not be in the room so he wouldn't telegraph to the panel which had been modified. I don't remember enough statistics to know what percentage would have to get it right for there to be a significant result.

I've used the A-brace that Mike describes for years, along with a 'chin' under the f-board that is wider than the ebony. No cracks, inluding some guitars that have suffered really hard hits on the backs of the necks, if the dings are any indicator.

The ultimate problem with the 'popsicle stick' is that it's relying on the strength of the glue joint between it and the top to do it's work. Sure, the joint is large, and yes, it's in shear, which is a 'good' way to load a joint, but it's also cross grain, and there's no way you can guarantee it will hold. Once it starts to move, for whatever reason, you're cooked.

If Mario says there's a change in tone, far be it from me to argue with him. I wouldn't win anyway.... ;) I will say that before and after tests of tone are awfully hard to do well, and can easily show almost anything you want depending on how they're done. Maybe Mario has that good a memory for tone, but very few other folks do.

I do think, though, that if your guitar was designed with a popsicle stick then you're asking for structural trouble to remove it, unless you add in some other reinforcement to make up for it. It may not be wonderful, but it's better than nothing.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] In general, everything above the soundhole is purely structural. Removing the popsicle brace on Martins to improve their sound is probably a waste of time.[/QUOTE]

No, not again! Mike, please understand I'm not picking on you here, because that idea seems to have been on the "conventional wisdom" list of givens for a long time. If everything in the upper bout area were only structural, we'd all be building round (banjos, anyone?), teardrop (dulcimers?) or square (Bo Diddley?) guitars. Just from reading the discussions on this forum alone, the real fact seems to be that EVERYTHING contributes to the sound of the guitar--even the strings and tuners, for crying out loud! Every dimension, every choice of wood, probably even the kind of glue used makes a difference in the sound of the final product. It's what makes lutherie so fascinating and frustrating, don't 'cha think?

[QUOTE=Tim McKnight] I have never used one and have not had any cracks in my tops in 13 years. Although I do use a (laminated 5 ply Spruce & Mahogany) neck block with a FB extension.[/QUOTE]
Hi Tim,
Can you elaborate a bit? Or, better yet show 'n tell? I'm curious if your neck block laminate is capped with Spruce on the top (or top and back), or if your lamination is vertical (heel to butt) rather than horizontal. I'd also love to hear your engineering concepts behind it, as I have been thinking about laminations in the neck block.

(If that's too off-topic for this "popsicle" thread, maybe start a new thread?)

Thanks,

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

[QUOTE=CarltonM]    If everything in the upper bout area were only structural, we'd all be building round (banjos, anyone?), teardrop (dulcimers?) or square (Bo Diddley?) guitars. [/QUOTE]

Carlton, not necessarily agreeing with Mike, but I think you and Mike are talking about different issues. You are talking about the configuration of the sound chamber and Mike, as I interpret it, is talking about the contribution of the vibrating top.

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

I use little "A" braces, I guess. But the biggest thing I do, and you all can do, to prevent the cracks is so simple, just about everyone misses it:

Glue the fretboard extension on, lightly. Use only a small bead of glue around the edges, and use a glue that will creep. I'll use regular Elmer's white glue, or a weak, 5 minute epoxy. With it glued lightly, if the fretboard shrinks, it will pop the glue joint, not crack the top. You have a simple repair to do that is 100% invisible and 100% structurally solid, instead of repairing a cracked top in a stressed area.

Many A-B tests have been done, by the many folks who've had theirs' pulled. There's no use in doing back-to-back, blind tests like Mike is talking of; too many variables, such as strings, player's style, etc... Best measure of tonal changes is simply large numbers and long periods of time. When a couple/few dozen pop-removed D-18's still sound a little brighter and more open than other, stock D-18's do years later, something happened. When we make a boomy, bottom heavy D-35 sing with the brightness of a good D-18, we have changed the tone immensely.

The thing most folks miss is that it is part of a package. On its own, removing it won't help much, but once you snug up the right tuners by properly stepping them(we're talking vintage style tuners; not the enclosed types), a well-fitted bone or ivory nut, then removing the pop brace will let all you've gained in the neck come through.

Same thing for every other detail that gets missed. Some folks swear that bridge pins, slotted or not, how they fit, etc..., makes no difference. Well yeah, on a Tak or a 99 dollar Harmony. But get everything else lined up right, on a responsive guitar, and all these little details add up.

A race engine isn't simply larger than your passenger car's engine. Take Nascar: 355 CI size limit. Stock block. Factory heads. Yet they turn 9500 rpm for 500-600 miels, churning out over 800HP. Big carb? Nope, it's limited to 720 cfm, smaller that the old Quadrajets on all GM cars. Special fuel? Nope, pump gas.

Nope, they do it by getting every-single-minute-little-stupidly-small-detail just right. Any one detail may seem so impossibly small to make any difference, and on its own, it likely is. But add them all up.....

Same for our instruments. Factories have large warranty headaches, and they're only concern is the bottom line. The pop brace is the result of that, and while it doesn't do much, it has remained. We are hand builders. We are supposed bto be "luthiers". We can do better, right?

Details, it's all in the details....
Mario38636.7957291667

Hi all,
        I too installed "A frame bracing" and let it into the headblock. I got it fairly precise in the pockets of the headblock ,but found it fairly tricky.
   I seem to recall a version by Mario , where the A frame isn't actually let in to the headblock, but instead finishes near it .Mario, could you elaborate on this or the system you now use.
    Also,I wonder if Alan can tell us how he goes about his method of A frame instalation

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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My little braces don't go into the neck block, but skim by it. Measure 1/4" from the centerline of the large transverse brace, and go off at 50 degrees.Repeat for the second one. 1/4" by 1/4". Them's my braces.

9 years, 100 or so guitars, much abuse, two reports of broken necks from falls/accidents, zero problems in the upper bout/neck block area.

I've had 3 fretboard extensions come loose, seemingly on their own. Maybe the glue was too little/too weak, or maybe it was the fretboard shrinking and the glue did its intended job and let go. All I know is the tops were intact and solid, and all were easily repaired in 10 minutes or less.

Thanks Mario, So your little braces angle from around the centre outwards. Opposite to the A frame setup?
Sounds clever to me and saves a lot of hassle lining up the headblock pockets,yet still covers the potential cracking area. Where do these braces finish and are they let in anywhere?
Regards the fingerboard extention, , I have heard of one builder using double sided tape.Maybe not as silly as it sounds. What are your views?

    Regards KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Good stuff Mario...
Thanks for that bit of insight. I suspect more folks than just me learned something good there.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Good stuff Mario...
Thanks for that bit of insight. I suspect more folks than just me learned something good there.[/QUOTE]

I sure did, and I plan to put the "little dab will do you" to work. I think I remember Mario mentioning it somewhere before. But like usual, it takes a while to penetrate my thick skull. As to the V brace at the neck, Mario are these braces about the same scale as the soundhole braces?

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

G'day again Mario, and again thanks for that fantastic and helpful information. Am I right in thinking you put a hole through the large transverse brace for truss rod adjustment?
I didn't with this A frame I did ,as I felt it must weaken that brace quite a bit ? Any views?
I must say though ,it's a slight inconvenience reaching the adjustment nut with my wrench.
I intend using your little "V" bracing system if that's O.K. with you and would like to dub it;
    
"The Very Clever Proulx Little V Bracing System"

or for short; TVCPLVBS   

Incidently Mario, I too have the Quadrajet and a real thumper I take out for fun days , but haven't quite reached tweeking 800 horses as yet

Regards KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Thanks, for the advice, Mario. I've been using the dab FB method on the last 3 guitars and no pop brace. I will try the A braces on the next.

You may be grumpy at times but we all appreciate the info. Actually, I believe it's just a front...there's really a pussycat behind that grinch mask! <BG>

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com