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[QUOTE=Glen H] If you compare the MSDS information on Nitro versus a typical water-borne, you find that the health rating is the same - "2" - Respiratory, eye, skin irritant, etc.

Don't be fooled into thinking because it doesn't stink as much, water-bourne is safer. Long-term exposure can make some people just as sick. Be careful either way.

[/QUOTE]
Glen,

I wish I had the data to back it up, but I am 100% convinced that regardless if water-based and solvent-based lacquers both have a "2" rating on the label, the water-based stuff is MUCH safer. There may be some particles sneaking into my body when I shoot water-based, but there are massive amounts of molecules of the solvents that are really obvious when shooting nitro.

Bob J:

Grafted Coatings swears there is no blue tint to KTM-9. Water clear.

I noticed something interesting the other day shooting water-based lacquer: a blue swirl in the can! Something in the water based-lacquer was reacting with the brass siphon stem. Perhaps I need to get a different gun, with a stainless steel siphon tube? Anyway, I thought this was interesting. I'm sure it had to be tinting the lacquer at least a tiny bit.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Well a lot of good stuff has been said here, but I still thought I would chime in the some more thoughts. I come from the perspective of a guitar builder who has finished about 10 guitars with water-based stuff and is going to switch to Nitro. Also my day job is working for a custom cabinet maker, and the job involves spraying Nitro on a regular basis.

In spite of the dangers/hazards associated with Nitro you will be hard pressed to find another product that will produce as nice a finish. I think there is a reason that many big name builders have used and continue to use nitro. The end result is great and the finish is forgiving (compared to water based). I have not seen any big name builders decide to give up using Nitro in favour of KTM. They may be out there but I haven’t heard of them. I think it is great that Greven and Doolin are getting good results with it, but no matter what they say it is not as easy to use as Nitro. I have achieved very acceptable results with KTM, but it is often been on the second try. If you run into a glitch in the finishing process with KTM it becomes difficult to make an invisible repair. Most of the time I have ended up stripping the part (guitar top, peghead,…) and refinishing. I am tiered of the headaches (figurative not literal) that the KTM has caused me and so I’m switching to Nitro. I work with it regularly and spray much more on cabinets than I probably ever will on guitars.

Yes I know the dangers. But there are many aspects of guitar building that can be hazardous to your health. Power tools are dangerous, so I am careful when I use them. Exotic wood dust (cocobolo, ebony,..) and shell dust is bad for your system, so I use dust collection and am always wearing a mask. Nitro is dangerous, so I take the necessary precautions that many have already mentioned. I’m not going to give up my tools, as I couldn’t build without them. I’m not going to give up my Coco because it makes beautiful guitars. And I’m going to use Nitro because I haven’t found a finish that is as easy to work with and produces as nice a result.

I think some of this may depend on the person. I know some people react badly to the fumes from Nitro or the dust from certain woods. I have never had a problem with either. I also know people who have sprayed Nitro for many years with seemingly no side effects (the key word is seemingly).

I guess what I’m saying is be smart and be safe. Wear your safety gear and don’t spray in your house (unless you have the proper setup). But lets not all go throwing our Nitro out the window because it is hazardous. There are many aspects of life which are potential health hazards. If we avoided them all we would probably be hermits who never got anything done.



JoshJosh H38636.9542361111

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Thank you every one for this great discussion re: nitro.

This leaves me with one choice with snow soon to fly here in Michigan - outsourcing.

Is outsourcing available to the few guitar a year builder? Is nitro used and can a quality job be obtained? I would be very interested if someone would let me know where I could outsource the spraying of my guitars to.

Many thanks to all.[/QUOTE]

You are in luck as you have an excellent finish person right there in Michigan. Here is the link to a previous thread. You should PM Lance for more details. Good luck, I think I may go this route myself.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

If I spray nitro outside, or in garage with doors open, what problems will winter present? I live in Denver. What is lowest temp. for great nitro finish? What suggestions for spraying in winter.

I used to work in the chemical industry, and there is no doubt, that dangerous substances can be used in a controlled enviroment, but we have to be realistic about what constitutes a control, ask any proffesional sprayer and I think you would be hard pressed to convince them to spray nitro in a domestic enviroment.

We can argue for nitro from a point of view of tradition and what people are used to, but then we used to use lead in paint, pour mercury into rivers etc, and breath asbestos dust without protection.

One major builder who has changed is Taylor Guitars,not that I know whether the new product they use is safer to use, but was probably more an enviromental decision forced by legislation.

The truth is we have to look at alternatives, because Nitro will in the not too distant future (certainly in Europe) simply not be an option, If you look what is happening in the chemical industry the companies who make the component parts are either pulling out or shifting production to less developed countries.

The reason for this is anything that has potential long term health implications or enviromental impact are simply becoming untenable.

So if we don't support the development of freindlier products then we will find ourselves in a situation where we have no Nitro and No Good Alternative.

Or even worse Nitro produced in the developing world.




RussellR38637.170775463

We hear of people switching from nitro to KTM9 and vice versa but has anyone opted for French Polishing over the others?

[QUOTE=bob J] If I spray nitro outside, or in garage with doors open, what problems will winter present? I live in Denver. What is lowest temp. for great nitro finish? What suggestions for spraying in winter.[/QUOTE]

Bob,

if you are doing some spraying anytime soon, you could drop by the school and I could help you spray in a safe enviornment. We have an OSHA approved spray booth.

I think that french polishing would be a good alternative except for the fact that it is so delicate. I've heard that it is not really excepted among the steel string guitar buyers. What do you people think?

Russell,
I agree with your comments, it would be short sighted if folks don't look
for alternatives because, just like oil based paints (which are not nearly as
hazardous as nitro), all these solvent-based finishes will be going the way
of the dodo.

Robbie,
French polish is certainly a much less hazardous alternative, but is
probably not as visually acceptable by most steel string players/
customers. While it is accepted and even desired by many classical
players, the steel string market would need some major re-education to
go that route, aside from the fact that it is a more delicate finish, albiet
easier to repair.

But the other issue that Alan Carruth made seems to be ignored here. The
fact of the matter is, nitro breaks down over time and not all that much
time either, compared to the potential life expectancy of a decent guitar.
It looks pretty for awhile, but age play havoc with it as it does with me!
Craig

Wow.. I am hearing more people being disappointed in KTM9 than ever. From blue tint to problems with repairs. I assume that a very and I do mean very slight blue tint is visible in some sun light conditions, but I knew that going into waterborne, but I have to try to find it. It is not vissible at all in non sunlight conditions, best I can tell anyway. As far as invisible repairs is concerned, I have not had that issue I clean and soften the repair area with DA prior to the re pair. I have seen some witness lines but they all disappeared when buffed. Drop fills with thin CA have given me good resuts as well. I follow Dollin's spray schedule and am quit pleased with the results I get with KTM9. I to prefer nitro to any other high gloss finish. but personally I think this stuff is pretty good. JMO
MichaelP38637.3996064815

Hi Michael

I think th problem is one of perception, everyone is looking for a waterbased nitro, rather than taking KTM for what it is, a good waterbased finish.

Russell, I agree whole heartedly. To me it is like saying French polish is inferior to nitro because it is not as hard.

I offer French polish, nito and KTM9 finishes on my guitars. I will probably never phase nitro out completely, but I don't push it. Mainly for the reason that started this thread. When I spray nitro I spray outdoors due to the flammability issue (my spray booth's fan is not explosion proof) I have had some very discriminating clients look pretty hard at the KTM9 finish and tell me they can't easly tell the diff under incandescent and neon lighting. So I am happy with it.

Everyone points for the most part are fact based but the way it is compared to nitro is not what waterborne finishes are about. This of course does not discount anyone's view in the least.

Good points guys. I think you are right on. As far as KTM goes it is hands down the best waterbased finish going.

Maybe it is not fair to compare KTM to Nitro. But it seems that Nitro has been the standard for so long. It is what all finishes seem to get compared to.

Josh

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Robbie,
You are a saint. Will be in touch when I am ready
Thank you again,

I ran an architectural woodworking shop that produced high end cabinets, moulding and millwork where we had our own finishing shop where we shot nitro all the time.

Yes Everyone that has done woodworking knows it is bad and many of the chemicals and solvents used in woodworking are bad...you just dont think about it much.

I have seen guys wash up using lacquer thinner, chew caked up laminate cement off their hands, all of this is common in a production woodworking shop.

There were guys in our shop who were smokers who were made to go outside to smoke. Especially when the weather was bad people would be half in and half out the door smoking.

One day there were two guys that had been in the spray room that had been shooting nitro and were rushing to finish a shop that was waiting to ship. They had neglected to turn on the exhaust system as they were only shooting for about 5-10 minutes...

The door to the outside was about 10 feet from the door of the finishing room. On of the smokers lit up more inside the doorway than out and at the same time one of the guys in the spray room decided to go out for a smoke. As he opened the door from the spray room there was a concentration of fumes from spraying and the lit cigarette 10 feet away caused the entire finish room to explode and burst into flames.

We had about 50 guys working in the shop so the place became a madhouse. All of the sawdust in the air in the shop combined by the fumes from the nitro and solvents all ignited at once and you could not see in front of you. Everyone was yelling and stumbling to get out as the shop proceeded to burn everywhere.

The only person that did not make it out was the guy that was still in the finish room, who died in the fire. The rest of the 60,000 foot shop was a total loss. The heat was so intense that we had an Altendorf (great brand) sliding table saw that could handle a 5 x 10 sheet of ply/mdf/hpl with ease but when we got back in the shop we saw the sliding table that was aluminum alloy had melted into a puddle.

When they investigated the fire they found that the guy in the finishing room had not in fact died from the flames, he had suffocated from lack of oxygen in that when the fumes ignited, it burnt up all oxygen in the air in the spray room.

It was a catastrophic thing for the shop as the guy that died was the cousin of the owner of the shop.

I do not use nitro for my guitars as I build classicals and do french polish. Even with french polishing I do not use denatured alcohol but rather use grain alcohol as to is non-toxic and works well with mixers for mixed drinks...it does explain the expression "getting shellac'ed.

    Most of the problems with lacquer application are from the people not following the cautions. If you are doing 1 or 2 do them outside if you don't have a proper booth.
    If you can not afford a booth one can be made without alot of cash. I did mine for under $200. I do use a mask and will soon go to positive flow or outside air into the mask.
    Lacquer isn't that bad if you follow the precautions. If you are in a high desity populstion area then yes look at another finish or find a place to spray.
      The only finish that beats Lacquer is french polish and you still have concerns with this finishing process. Denatured lacquer , or shine is still best to be used with good ventelation and both still have a low flashpoint and are explosive in concentration. I agree though safer than nitro.
    Educate yourself and take the needed precautions as they are there for your own good health and safety.