Official Luthiers Forum!

A friend of mine is a local musician and multi instrumentalist. At practice the other night another of his band mates tipped a borrowed banjo over and caused this brake:





This banjo belongs to a mutual friend of ours who has said that he wants me to repair it. I repaired a broken headstock on my Gibson ES335 using epoxy and was considering the same with this old banjo but thought I could do well with the collective insights of all of you. I have done no test and scraping to figure out the glue used here. It has split right on the seam of the three piece neck and has split the single piece ebony headplate and popped the diamond inlay (which I have and will CA back in place at the end of the process).

So, is epoxy the right choice here? Or should I try to clean the joint out and get some hide glue in there, or....

Thanks in advance.

Shane

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Canada

Shane,
I found this. It might help, or it might send you to the nut house. I wouldn't have the nerve to try it. But it seems like the same problem. Frank Ford will do anything.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Structural /BrokenHeadstocks/ConcealDowel/concealdowel.html

Shane,

With a bit of luck you could get an axe head in that crack and get it to split all the way to the bottom of the banjo

Sorry couldn't resist an in poor taste banjo joke!

I'll defer to others more experienced with repairs but would have thought that hide glue would work fine.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I'd say it's all according to what it was originally glued with. If you know it to have been hide then that is the obvious choice. Otherwise I'd go for epoxy. Mind you my first idea was right along with Dave's the only other thought I had was to give him an accordian instead and make him a real social outcast.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Just a couplr of years ago I would have agreed with Dave and Colin, but banjos are growing on me. I'm really liking bluegrass music these days, and you can't have bluegrass without an occasional banjo. Frank Ford's method is great.

Don Williams38638.3076851852

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Easy boys , I play banjo as well as guitar (not at the same time). Actually I don't play banjo as well as guitar, I play banjo in addition to playing guitar. Anyway, I'm a bluegrass lover, but I enjoy hearing all types of music on guitar or banjo.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Epoxy has no place here! This is an old and nice banjo, you want to fix it right away, don't let any glue into the joint and just fix it with Hide glue. I haven't yet looked at Franks' solution, I'm heading over there right now.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

An old friend in the the piano business once described "Perfect Pitch" in the following manner:

Throwing an accordian into a dumpster and having it bounce off the bagpipes and land on the banjo!

Re the cracked banjo headstock, I would look closely to determine whether the trauma caused internal stresses in the wood to "give way". If this is the case, gluing & clamping may reintroduce those internal stresses, raising the possibility of the split re-occuring. A new spline may be a better solution. (but more difficult for sure!)

Regards,
Chris

[QUOTE=old man] Easy boys , I play banjo as well as guitar (not at the same time). Actually I don't play banjo as well as guitar, I play banjo in addition to playing guitar. Anyway, I'm a bluegrass lover, but I enjoy hearing all types of music on guitar or banjo.

Ron [/QUOTE]

Ron,

Whichever "grass" it is you love it must be good stuff

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Ok, I found Franks' repair that Doug talked about earlier. first, for you folks who post links here- it's much easier for people to get to your link if you use the "Add hyperlink" feature here. Then your link is "hot" and people can just click on it. for example, I could not get Doug's link to work right for me by copying and pasting....so I had to search all over Frank's huge site to find it! But I did find it, and here it is for those who want to click on it- Franks' Peghead repair.

My thoughts on this one....the damage to the banjo was from a fall, and as far as Shane or anyone knows, that center lamination was stable and all just fine before that. Franks' repair deals with a center strip that has degraded, and is falling apart and not damage from a fall at all.
So the dowel, and a lot of the monkey business isn't needed here. If the joint still stays in alignment when you dry-clamp it shut, then put some hide glue in there and clamp it up. If it isn't in alignment then you'll need to make a couple of cauls that will sandwhich the peghead to keep it aligned, then glue and clamp the whole mess.
Do a good dry-run of the whole process, and have it all figured out before you go for the glue, and then go for it! Don't forget the wax paper to keep the cauls from sticking.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Mark,

In the photo's I have the crack opened up with a wedge of spruce (I have lots of that around!). Otherwise everything is inalignment and does close up very nice. You can see the crack on the headstock but that is probably the lacquer crack that is most obvious and I think I can repair that pretty well by just rubbing the surface with a rag soaked with lacquer thinner. It has been years since I used hyde glue but I remember how brittle it can be when dried. Should I be trying to scrap some of this old glue out to ensure that we get good adhesion at least on parts of this seam? Should I be asking Amy H about this?

Thanks Mark.

My friend, James Powell, who plays this instrument is a fabulous song writer. Although he and I have played together in a bluegrass band he plays banjo, mandolin, guitar and penny whistle in the contemporary 'folk' band that he a local doctor have formed. James works in a fish hatchery, the bands name is Dr.Fishy! Anyone what a CD?

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Shane, I would just put some fresh glue in there and glue it up. The crack just happened, so it's clean and the new glue will heat and melt and blend into the old glue. Part of the beauty of using the hide glue is the fact that it was already made and glued up with the stuff, so using it to fix it makes a lot of sense. If it fist together well, then it'll glue up well and no need to get in there and scrape. Remember the first rule- do no harm!
And with that first rule in mind, I want to say DON'T use the lacquer thinner. After the hide glue is dry, just clean up the surface with warm water on a rag and see what you have at that point. Lacquer thinner will eat the finish on it and make a big mess! if you have to put anything on it, use shellac.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Mark
Thank you for the info on the hyperlink button. I just didn't know it exisisted. I wondered why my link didn't come up blue.
Sorry.     

Since James works in a fishery, I think you should use fish glue to fix it.
Sorry, I think Don's humor is rubbing off on me.
Craig

DaDa Dum-Daa Dum-Daa DaDa Dummm You probably need to set in on a jam session or two with me and the local missfits to understand MichaelP38638.6951851852

I was actually thinking of fish glue, but it isn't hot and won't dissolve the hide glue a bit...

Great banjo jokes!!

Shane

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Canada

Must be a UK thing, guess we just don't have an ear for the Banjo but I'm with Dave and Colin on the axe idea.

Colin don't even get me started on the accordian, the other day I was listening to a very fine guitar player which was great until a guy on an accordian joined in. I am sure it takes a great deal of skill to play and this guy looked as though he knew what he was doing, but are there really people out there who think that sound is nice !!

I got it.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Russell,

It depends on context. Some of Flaco Jimenez's work with Ry Cooder is hauntingly beautiful (IMO) for instance.


[QUOTE=RussellR]
Colin don't even get me started on the accordian, the other day I was listening to a very fine guitar player which was great until a guy on an accordian joined in. I am sure it takes a great deal of skill to play and this guy looked as though he knew what he was doing, but are there really people out there who think that sound is nice !![/QUOTE]