Official Luthiers Forum!

Dave

I think you arew right you will often see the joins in the stack, but I agree with you well executed they add interest.

I stack the Peg head and cut it at an angle rather than using a scarfe join.

Russell

Hey Dave;
With your stacked peghead joint... do you add veneers to both sides?

John... It seems a shame to have to glue your neck together twice, but it's encouraging to know I wasn't miles off the track.
Next time I'm doing a batch of necks, I'll try both yours & Mark's Methods.
Many thanks to all for the help!

[QUOTE=RussellR] Dave

I think you arew right you will often see the joins in the stack, but I agree with you well executed they add interest.

I stack the Peg head and cut it at an angle rather than using a scarfe join.

Russell [/QUOTE]

Russell that is pretty cool. Art Overholtzer did his necks that way on a lot of occasions, and Art was THE man.

John

[QUOTE=John Kinnaird] [QUOTE=RussellR]
I stack the Peg head and cut it at an angle rather than using a scarfe join.
[/QUOTE]
Russell that is pretty cool. Art Overholtzer did his necks that way on a lot of
occasions, and Art was THE man.[/QUOTE]
Could one of you gents illustrate this method?
Even a shot of a peghead done in this manner would help a lot.

Thanks!chmood38659.3073958333

I've naver made a stacked peg head but I'm inclined to think that, done well, you would never see the seam. The top is covered by the veneer and the bottom might not even have a seam if the wood is thick enough. I think that theparallel grain glue joint on the side would be almost invisible.

Mikes Drawing is Correct

Please see the attached pictures.

I haven't tried this yet, but I have seen it in the Kinkade
book.

Russell, what kind of wood is that?

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I would think that the stacked head would be weaker than a scarf because of the short grain. You also have to use more wood. What advantage does it have?

_________________
Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Yeah, Scott, it will be weaker than a scarf, but should be same strength as a one piece neck, which should be adequate.
Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

While it's true that the short grain on the laminated neck is a potential
weakness, as Ron points out, a one-piece neck has the same issue. As a
matter of fact, with long grain glued to long grain, it's probably stronger
than a one-piece neck, glue joints being as strong as they are. The scarf
joint has been a mainstay on classicals for a long time. Because of the
angle of the cut, the surface of the head piece that gets glued to the neck
shaft is somewhere between long grain and end grain, so the strength of
the joint has a level of compromise built into it as well. All three
ultimately probably have about the same strength, although that would
certainly be an interesting test to see at what point the three joints failed.
I know for certain they fail when the guitar falls over and lands on the tip
of the head stock!@#%#@!!!

Yep, I realize the one piece has short grain also. My question was geared towards the stacked neck versus the scarf. The scarf seems to be stronger, uses less wood and has one short, simple cut. So what are the positive points, if any, of this neck over the scarf? If their is no advantage, why use it?

_________________
Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Ron That English Cherry, ColinS tells me the Cherry in the USa is a different species.

Scott

To my mind the actual joint is stronger as yous potentially have six inchs of glueing surface.

True the short grain is weaker, but to my mind the joint has less oppurtunity for failure.

[QUOTE=Scott Thompson] Yep, I realize the one piece has short grain also. My question was geared towards the stacked neck versus the scarf. The scarf seems to be stronger, uses less wood and has one short, simple cut. So what are the positive points, if any, of this neck over the scarf? If their is no advantage, why use it? [/QUOTE]

Well I could think of a few:

- a longer glue joint than on the scarfe

- an easier glueing preparation than planing/scraping the two pieces of the scarfe for the correct angle and join after the cut

- more predictablity on where the nut/end fretboard position is. In planing the scarfed pieces if you don't get it right, correcting means this point creeps further up towards the heelblock (just my poor technique though)

- if you wanted to do a volute on the back of the peghead, you can use a thinner piece of mahogany for the main neck (pretty close to the final thickness and saving all of that wood you would otherwise have to take off) and use the smaller thicker under peghead piece to get the thickness for the volute

- no change in grain direction on the sides of the peghead

Of course you could save even more wood by using a piece of mahogany close to the final thickness and only slightly wider than the fretboard width at the body join, adding Russell's underpiece for the volute, and then gluing two mahogany wing pieces to the side of the peghead for the final headstock width.

All horses for courses and if it works for you then go with it.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=Dave White]
- a longer glue joint than on the scarfe

- an easier glueing preparation than planing/scraping the two pieces of the scarfe for the correct angle and join after the cut

- more predictablity on where the nut/end fretboard position is. In planing the scarfed pieces if you don't get it right, correcting means this point creeps further up towards the heelblock (just my poor technique though)

- if you wanted to do a volute on the back of the peghead, you can use a thinner piece of mahogany for the main neck (pretty close to the final thickness and saving all of that wood you would otherwise have to take off) and use the smaller thicker under peghead piece to get the thickness for the volute

- no change in grain direction on the sides of the peghead[/QUOTE]

Umm, I have no problems doing volutes with regular, about 22-25mm thick neck blanks and scarf joints. As for gluing surface, far as I can tell, assuming an 'add below the neck shaft' scarf, they're identical.

I honestly don't find sawing, planing and gluing prep that big a deal, and leave enough leeway in the sawing stage to get it all lined up properly afterwards. I also do stacked heels, so there's a bit of extra 'space' there to adjust if it does come out a little short (heel goes on after the scarf).

As for grain direction change, if you glue on wings properly, they're pretty much invisible in the end grain, and if you backstrap and front veneer, the sides are continuous. Although I have to say that with something like mahogany, a good scarf hides itself quite well when viewed from the side.

Mattia

I the glue joint is effectively 6 inchs long, so to me longer.

I wasn't trying to say this method is better or worse, just that it is the way I do it.

I have tried Scarfe joints and this method and this is the one that suits me personally.

Of course, what ever works for you. I was interested in the methods merits.

The 6 inch effective glue joint lenghth is going to be on the stacked boards, but closer to 3.5 inches after cutting out the head it looks like.

Edit: afterthought-you talking about surface area, not length, right? if so, nevermind. Scott Thompson38659.8900347222

_________________
Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente]
Umm, I have no problems doing volutes with regular, about 22-25mm thick neck blanks and scarf joints. As for gluing surface, far as I can tell, assuming an 'add below the neck shaft' scarf, they're identical.
[/QUOTE]

Hi Mattia,

I wasn't trying to advocate Russell's method over scarfe joints - I do scarfe's myself - I was just doing my normal thing of thinking things through from all angles to respond to Scott's question.

My point about the volute is that yes you can do it with 22-25mm thick neck blank, but when you carve the neck, you thin down the shaft by taking the thickness down. If you were being very cautious about the scarce (and by all accounts getting scarcer) mahogany, you could use a neck blank of nearer 15mm thickness. This wouldn't let you do the volute with scarfing, but adding a block with Russell's method would let you do the volute.

I have not done the maths to see if the wood you would carve from the 22-25mm thick blank is more than the block that goes under the headstock, or the amount you cut from the headstock Russels way compared with the amount you have to shave off the scarfe to get the right headstock thickness, so the theory may just collapse like a souffle!

I like doing these sort of mind games - helps to stop me going senile and occasionally something intereting and useful pops out

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

No I was thinking length scott and you are quite right, because I cut some of the joint away.