Official Luthiers Forum!

If this is not the place for this just let me know if this gets moved.
My question is about acoustic pickups, built in pre-amps and the like. What do you like best and why?
I'm leaning on installing one on an Epiphone acoustic that I have and am really wondering what you people like.

Thanks
Jerry

I'll second this question, I've debated on whether to install pickups in the guitars I build for myself. I'm especially curious about passive pickups, as I'd prefer not to require a battery, and it seems a waste of money to have a preamp in every guitar when I mostly just use it for quick recording to the computer. On the other hand, it would be kind of fun to design some Taylor-esque integrated controls

Also, how about pickup vs. internal mic vs. both? Seems like pickups generally sound better, but the mic picks up percussive techniques better. But since none of them ever sound all that great compared to a good external mic setup, it might not be worthwhile to do anything beyond basic.

Playing style and venue both make a BIG difference in what pickup would work best. Alot of people really love K&K pickups (their pure western mini) but I kinda half plant, half drag my pinky and with a K&K it sounds like a bad drummer. LR Baggs I-beam does the same thing for me. Mics or other type pickups don't pick up my pinky. These pickups are also prone to feedback at high volume levels.
My favorite "pickup" is actually a mic. I use an Audio Technica Pro 37 condensor mic on an add on boom on my vocal mic stand. It quiter venues I use it for the mains, but run my pickup to the monitors to help with feedback. My pickups of choice are either a LR Baggs M1, into a Fishman Pro EQ platinum pre amp, or a D-tar Wavelength into the Fishman pre.

What's a good pickup for me might not be for someone else. Again, playing style and venue makes alot of difference. For recording I'd forget about pickups. Recording on a PC with a cheap (~$50) usb powered condensor mic will sound better, and be more realistic than any pickup...........as long as you have a quite enviroment to record in. I've got some decent recording equipment and mics, but I do most of my recording with my Zoom H4.

If you insist on recording with a pickup a K&K PWM, or LR Baggs I-beam are probably your best bets.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
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The K&K Pure Western Mini is hot, so you don't really need a pre-amp with it; it's about as natural sounding as an acoustic pickup can be; there are no internal batteries to mess with; it's pretty easy to install; and it's cheap. I don't know about you, but that hits a lot of my hot buttons. The only real negative for me is that the installation is pretty much permanent if you follow the recommended procedure and super glue the pickup elements to the bridge plate. They do give you double stick tape, but claim it reduces the pickup's efficiency. I haven't tried one that way.

I have installed two K&K Trinity systems and a mini western. The mic and external preamp give me a great sound but the mini western without a preamp is not far behind and a 1/3 the price. The only thing I find bad with the K&K without preamp is it has a little too much bass but it is easy to EQ out the K&K systems are the most natural sound I have found. When I play the mini western equipped guitar at an open mic I use the external preamp from the Trinity so I can mix out the bass myself, I also find less sound is generated when touching the top of the guitar with the preamp being used.

K&K now has an external mic called the Meridian that seems quite interesting http://www.kksound.com/meridian.html
with this I can move the pickup to whatever guitar I am using and not committing to a pickup that a potential buyer might not like.

I have also used a B-band on one guitar but though it has a great sound it is the worst for feedback of anything I have used.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

What B-band did you use? Just curious. I was looking at these but now the K&K looks like a good one.

Thanks

The one with the pickup on the bridge plate, and the pre amp in the jack, I think it is A1 style preamp. They also have one that combines this pickup with an under saddle pickup which is probably better for feedback control.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

i like the old baggs LB-6, or LB-12. for me, the 12 has a wider string spacing, which i like.
fits in an 1/8" saddle slot, with an 1/8" hole drilled through the bridge and bridge plate for the wire,
then go out through the endpin jack.
from there i go through a baggs d. i. box for the pre-amp.
baggs d. i. has more features than a built in pre.
i can use the one pre for as many gits as i want.
no pre-amp or bulky battery case in the git. i like that.
baggs also makes a gig-pro, which is a clip on to yer belt pre, which i never tried.
imo, no acoustic pick-up sounds that good, so i'm sticking with my set-up.
now, from reviews of friends and forum opinions...
"they all basically sound quacky. the k&k sounds the best. internal mic pick-ups sound even better, but feedback is an issue.
the sunrise is killer, but you need an expensive pre to sound that way."
so there. i have tried a cheap behringer mic pre with my baggs LB12, and it sounds a little less "quackie".
also, from now on i'm not putting a pick-up on acoustics that i build, because if somebody buys it,
they'll probably want something else. so there.

For me, simple wins. I've used the K&K mini in several guitars and it's what I would recommend due to pricer and simplicity. If you've got the extra cash, the LR Baggs Lyric is also a great choice and works very well. It uses a 9 volt battery but that seems to last six months to a year depending on how much you play.

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The long way around is often the fastest way there.

Put me down for
K&K mini
K&K trinity
LR BAGGS Anthem

not a fan of fishman too many issues with the aura systems

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I build, but I also do repairs. My shop is now runs full time, so I install a ton of pickups — some because the instrument lacks a pickup, others because the player is unhappy with the factory-installed you-name-the-brand.
Personally, I can identify an under-saddle transducer pickup (UST) a mile away, and my ears just don’t like it. Customers who bring in a guitar with an LRBaggs Anthem (blended UST + mic) often have the guitar biased toward the mic.
I like the K&K bridge plate pickups, but they’re a pain to install, and an even bigger pain to de-install.
I generally sell (and stock) the LRBaggs Lyric microphone — essentially the microphone half of the Anthem. The mounting position is somewhat flexible, which can be helpful in some instruments.
For a bridge plate pickup, I lean toward the Schatten HFN active VT — very similar to the LRBaggs Ibeam, but much less expensive (at least in Canada).
Half of my own guitars run the Schatten, the other half the Lyric. Customers are happy with both, but the Schatten is almost half the price of the Lyric, so sales are biased more than 2 to 1.
For the odd customer who performs with a really loud band in various locations, feedback is an over-riding concern. For them, I’ve been installing the Seymour Duncan SA6 Mag Mic — a combined microphone and sound hole-mounted magnetic PUP, with a blend control. When feedback gets out of hand, the player can bias the PUP to the magnetic side — sounds less natural, but eliminates the feedback. It’s a bit pricey, but the right solution for some players, and very easy to move between instruments.

My fave is the Schatten HFN passive. Easier to install than the K&K system, and less permanent as it just uses twoside tape. Weighs less than the K&K as well which is important to me. The Lyric has a significant detrimental tone to my guitars as well so I won't put one in.

The Schatten actually reproduces the sound of the guitar itself, rather than sounding more like the pickup like most piezo UST's...

I’m with Tim on the sound of undersaddle pickups. I just don’t like the sound, no matter how it is processed.

For a number of years, the Lyric has been my favorite, particularly when paired with a Venue preamp. It sounds very natural to me.

I have in my possession, but have not yet experimented with, a James May Engineering Ultra Tonic pickup and a Tonedexter modeler to go with it. I hear good reviews, but no personal experience yet. It is supposed to be really great if you have access to high end mics for the modeling procedure, which I do. We’ll see.

JJB Electronics. High quality, low price and several systems to choose from. I'm really not a fan of under the saddle type. Never heard one that I liked. Just ordered two units from JJB last week.

Brent

I've never been crazy about any acoustic pickups - especially under saddle units. Any piezo pickups require some kind of buffering to even out the spikiness of the sound. I used to put a thin section of a rubber band under the saddle on some guitars in the 80's. It cut down the volume, but sweetened the tone.

What I recommended for many decades was any one of the many Ken Donnell Mini-Flex systems that used microphones/ and or a piezo pickup paired with microphone. Sounded much more natural.

I have an older Yamaha Silent Guitar with a UST that sounds pretty decent, paired with Yamaha's SRT system, which is actually sampled acoustic sounds processed like a synth. Sounds very nice, with no acoustic guitar problems like feedback or woofiness.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I like them too, same reasons.
Braggs anthem is also excellent.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

A lot has changed in the ten years since this thread was started. For a while I was a K and K or JJB transducer guy and would NEVER recommend a Piezo. Now for me personally, I use a Fishman piezo with the Fishman Aura Spectrum and there is no going back for me. It's expensive but it's by far the best live set up I have ever used.

Interesting that Ed likes the HFN passive, while I like the Active version.
Of course the pickup itself is exactly the same. Having the end-pin preamp gives to option for an onboard volume and tone control, which many clients appreciate, if not demand.
Perhaps more importantly, while the passive version works fine with guitar amps, it doesn’t work with all PA type systems. I’m not conversant with the electronics, but it seems the input impedance for microphone inputs is sometimes not compatible with passive piezo outputs. I’ve had two clients give me hell because their instruments didn’t work with a well-known model of portable PA. The HFN active is only a little bit more, and compatible with virtually anything, by virtue of having the preamp. So that’s the one I stock.
Like Ed, I think the Schatten products are outstanding value. I’ve put them in steel-string and classical guitars, Selmers, banjos, mandolins, Celtic harps, and autoharps.


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I’ll cast another vote for surface mount pickups from JJB Electronics. I use their Prestige 330 on many of the acoustic guitars that I build. Very similar to K&K pure mini. Great sound and a great value for your dollar.

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Andy
www.bounsallguitarworks.com

I've got three JJBs going into what 's coming up to the finishing stage. 220s for an ABG and a parlor and 330 for a Prairie State. JJB was very helpful in the choices.
Recently I installed a MiniFlex II in my '72 Gospel. It replaced an old FRAP from the late '70s. I got it from Ken Donnell who lives nearby. Sounds very natural through a Carvin acoustic amp with no preamp.

We put Anthem or Anthem SL's in every guitar we sell (except Parlor's, which don't get pickups). Like others, I can't stand the sound of an under saddle pizzo style pickup. We target people who play through sound systems on a regular basis, and spending thousands on a hand made guitar and then having it sound like "plastic" coming out of the speakers just hurts too much. I've used Lyrics in the past as well, but they don't have the low end that the Anthem's offer. The down side is that the Anthem's have a Mic and a pizzo to get the full range of frequencies, so all that work we do for a perfect fitting saddle get's short-circuited with the wire. It's not dramatic, but I can tell the difference without the wire under there. But, like I said, our customers play amplified so that small trade off is more than worth the relatively natural and full range sound the Anthem's give us.

A few years ago I had the chance to demo different LR Baggs systems at the Santa Barbara show and went home with the mic/UST combo that you *can’t* tweak to adjust the blend. I don’t remember what it’s called, but it was my favorite by far. I thought it had an extremely pleasant soundand liked the definition the UST gave each note combined with the airiness of the mic.


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Tim,

I prefer the passive because I think there are better preamps than what comes with the active Schatten.

The passive unit indeed requires pairing with an external preamp/active DI.

I use a Baggs Venue DI. The combo is better sounding imo than the Schatten preamp.

The passive system lets you choose your preamp. That being said, I have no problem with installing the active VT if someone asked. In fact my next pay check depends on it, lol. Come on Postie!

Ed,
Don’t disagree with you. At least for my local aftermarket, having the preamp on the Schatten keeps people happy. If they have the cash for an external preamp, they will likely go for the Lyric that sits on the same shelf and offerings from LRB. Like you, I’ll bring in whatever a client prefers. I’m just happy when I don’t have to play inside a guitar with CA!
T


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Just an aside but I have had some success removing K&K glued transducers by turning the guitar soundhole down and using a long needle and syringe saturating the wood of the bridge plate around the pickup disk with acetone. It seems to wick into the wood under the pickup element.

After a few minutes sometimes just a steady tug on the wire will pop it off.

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