Official Luthiers Forum!

Mario, I seem to remember from previous threads that you are keen on the Freud saw blades. I'm after a new blade and wondered if I could ask you for your view? I'm after a 10" blade (254mm) for general use, cutting tenons, squaring neck blanks, cutting scarfs, tapering fingerboards etc. What tooth count do you recommend? Any other suggestions.

Thanks

ColinColin S38670.2

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin, I think the blade you're thinking of is the Freud Diablo. I don't think it comes in 10" though, but
is 7 1/4". I use the 40 tooth blade. The nice features are that it cuts very well, has a thin kerf is inexpensive and readily available. I get mine at the local hardware store.

Colin,

Just be aware some of the mid level freud blades teeth that do not leave a square bottom. That is to say that the if you are cutting tenon shoulders the cut is not square but rather has 45 degree shoulders. These are very small but are a pain when you have to clean it up with a chisel to ensure that your tenon fits tightly into the mortice. I use CMT's and I think that they are a step up from Freud and near Forrest.

Shane

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Canada

Shane, which of the CMT blades do you recommend for general use? Tooth count etc. Freud and CMT are both available here in the UK (made in Italy), I've not seen Forrest blades here. Don't forget that model names are probably different in the UK market, (the Diablo is sold as the Pro here)

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin

I can't comment on their table saw blades, but CMT router cutters are first class.

Russ

Shane I know that Mario's favorite is the Diablo 7 1/4"
At least that's what I remember. Take a look at the link below. It's a freud combination blade at Amazon. You can also look at the other freud blades there and read the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000225V8/102-1824293-1866 532?v=glance&n=228013&n=1000&s=hi&v=glance

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Yeah, my favorites are the 7-1/4" Diablo blades, in both 24 and 40 tooth counts. There are variations on these, too, but they're inexpensive enough that we should all buy a few and see which ones work best.

I rarely ever need a 10" blade, but I have a 60 tooth Freud for that, too. Not the greatest, maybe, but very clean cutting nonetheless...

the non flatbottomed cut Shane was refering to is in blades with an alternate tooth bevel (atb) in which typically every other tooth is ground at 30-45 degrees to the top edge of the cut so that each side of the cut is sheared but the bottom of the cut will leave a |\/| cut. Rip blades have a flat bottom for every tooth but for the best allround blade configuration if you need a flat bottomed cut is a combination blade that has alternate teeth in addition to a flat tip to clean up the cut and leave the bottom smooth...it is a compromise as atb usually leave the cleanest cut but when you need a flat bottom and clean cut a combination blade is best.

Forrest is a small company brand manufactured in New Jersey. They are very nice blades and are the brand that I use, mostly because in the past I sold woodworking tools and machinery and Jim Forrest and his family and always had good results with them.

Colin,

I am not at my shop right but now this is probably the blade I am using. Once my shop is built later next year and I have all of my tools back in one place I will probably buy one of their top of the line blades. I have bl;ades for laminate and other such things are well over $100 each. Having said that, I do have a 40 tooth 7.25 inch Freud Diablo sitting right in front of me that I will be using when I get real serious about guitar building. A friend of mine who is a full time builder, turning out 100 guitars a year is using these blades as well. So if Mario and other pros are using them, that has to say something! The only draw back for me is that I have Delta uni-saw with a scale on the rails that I set up accuratly and then use for measuring. So if I get blades that are .125 thick it is very easy for me to use my scale to know what cut I am doing on either side of the balde. With thin kerf blades I can set the scale so that it measures the distance between the fence and the inside of the blade but I then have to measure or test cut if I need a measurement that is to the outside of the blade.

Hope this is helpful!

Shane

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Canada

Shane, I use a Unisaw too, with the Beismeyer(sp?) fence; I set the scale to the small Diablo blades, since these are on the saw 99% of the time.

It's all about what you do with the saw most. The Smaller blades are great with plywoods and laminates, too. How often do we really need more than 2-1/4" of cut on the table saw, anyhow <bg>

Mario,

Your're right again, it's all about compromise and what you do most! And setting the scale isn't that hard to do. I actually use the full depth a lot in general woodworking and recently in jigging up for guitar building. You are probably as jigged up as you need to be but I have a ways to go yet. But that thin blade with a zero clearance insert will do a lovely job and use very little of the horsepower. I have a uni-fence on my saw..

Shane

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Canada

    Once you use a forrest you won't use anything else. This is the pro choice. They are more money but a true industrial blade.

I have used Everlast blades for
years and have found them to be excellent quality and value. I have also
used German made Leitz blades with excellent results too. They are very
quiet running. Try http://www.woodtechtooling.com/ for descriptions,
prices, etc.
In my experience a flat bottom cut is not crucial for tenoning, as I cross cut
the shoulders before I cut the cheeks, but everyone's method may vary a bit.
For general use I'd reccomend a 10" 60 TPI ATB blade.
-CChas Freeborn38669.9002893519

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Once you use a forrest you won't use anything else

As soon as they make one with a .051" kerf, I'll buy it.

We build guitars, here, not furniture <bg>

I used to use Forrest blades 20 old years ago and they were fine, I think they are better now and probably worth the money, I am happy with CMT, and as with Russel, given a choice there is no other roiuter bit I would buy. But for fine work, zero clearance and a small fine kerfed blade is probably the best, no burning, less blade in the wood to bind, all that good stuff.

Still prefer a square bottom for absolutely cleam shoulders rather than something like this /-\ (not exactly but if you moved the "-" to the top you would get the idea) that is created by a general purpose Freud blade that a friend of mine keeps on his saw. I have an extra CMT that I keep near his saw and change whenever I use it to do any kind of quality work.

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Canada

The 7-1/4", 40 tooth Diablo blades are for 5/8" arbor size I believe, I was not able to find anything bigger. My table saw has a 20 mm arbor, so I had to get them reamed at a local machine shop.

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Thanks Mario, Shane and the rest, looks like I've got to get two new blades then. a 10" CMT 60 and a 7.25 Freud Diablo 40. I only really need the 10" for scarf joints (and heh! I plan to go over to V-joints anyway!).

Yes I only use CMT router bits as well The 6.35mm Downcut spiral bit virtually live in my lam trimmer.

Thanks everyone.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Arnt,

Freud is an Italian company that also sells blades and tooling in Europe. I would be very surprised if they do not have 180mm Diablo blades with a 20mm bore. I would check some of the online tool dealers in Germany or Italy.

    I build guitars mario! No Need to be insulting.

Soorry Tippie(I forget your real name?), I wasn't trying to insult. Just being realistic.

Todd, I get over two inches of cut from the little blades. Does everything, even neck blocks, on an acoustic guitar, except for squaring up the heel. Honestly, that's the only time I reach for the 10" blade. Yeah, I don't do scarfed necks, so I don't have that cut to do either, but that would only be a second use for the 10 incher. It's not about wasting or saving stock, it's about a very clean, very easy, and very safe cut. Oh, and half the dust... did I mention safe? And cheap!

Shawn, I didn't find any European sources when I bought these a couple of years ago. The thing is too, with the current exchange rates it's often cheaper to buy things like this from the US if I can't find it locally, as long as the size or weight of the item does not make shipping costs prohibitve.

By the way, having them reamed is no big deal. The local shop that does it specialices in saw blade and planer cutter sharpening, and will do it in 5 minutes for next to nothing (probably since I'm such a good customer ).Arnt38671.3363773148

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

    It isn't the tool as much what one knows how to make it work. No blade is any good if it isn't sharp.

No blade is any good if it isn't sharp.

Which is why I love these. Sharp, and cheap enough that when they go dull, I toss it and reach for a new one(on average, maybe every 30-40 guitar's worth of work). Like Todd, I use the older, dull ones in the Skil saw, but the blade that's in there is still goin strong after something like ten years, despite once cutting into my cast iron vise. Not all carbide is created equal, and these dudes have some nice carbide for their price range.

Todd, yeah, it can wander a bit, especially if you're used to a 10" blade, and don't adjust your feed hand accordingly. Just feed a bit lighter, and let the blade do its thing, and it's very reasonable. Push it a bit, and it'll wander...

The cuts are clean enough that the 3 sides of my headstocks are done with it, and I go right to fine sandpaper before finishing. The Unisaw's arbour was really sweet right from the get-go, but my old Craftsman saw(my Dad's orginal table saw, a 1948 model that still gets used today!) had a bit of wobble, but that was easy enough to true up as you say. Another big help was when I set my fence dead-square to the blade, and not skewed to the rear a bit like we're always told to do. This change was huge, in fact....

I just measured the depth of cut on the Unisaw, and it's 1-3/4". A bit less than I remembered, so I checked the old Crafstman, and that one sneaks nearly 2-1/4" from the same blade. The arbour goes much closer to the table on that guy!

In the end, everyone, if you want to ultimate-smooth cut, yes, go to a Forrest or whatever. But if you want a $10-$20 blade that does 99% of the work extremely well, give the little Diablo blades a try. They changed how I view, and use, the table saw, which is now my most valuable tool, by a long shot.Mario38671.4673263889

OK Mario, You've sold it to me! The only thing I need a bigger blade for is scarfs, and I'm going over to V-joints anyway! 30-40 guitars worth will last me 6 or 7 years.

Thanks

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mario,
Which Diablo blade has a .051" kerf?? The smallest I have seen is a .059". Not that the small difference matters, I was just wondering if I have overlooked one of their blades.