Official Luthiers Forum!

Two years ago when I started building guitars, I could come here and post my embarrassingly stupid questions and would get very gracious responses to my queries.

Well - fast forward two years - and I'm discovering, through emails from potential customers, that they not only KNOW about OLF, but visit it on a semi-regular basis.

So..... the place I used to feel was my "safety net" now feels like a bit less safe - if you know what i mean.

I really miss being able to ask anything at any time. This used to feel like a fraternity with a secret handshake that only the members knew about.

I know enough to understand that I need serious mentoring - but I'm not crazy about flying that flag to the world

Hope I'm not alone in these feelings - and wish there was a solution.

Lance - got any ideas????

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Part of that is just a function of the internet, and the fact that people aren't mindful of it's structure. Make an embarrassing, asinine comment in a political or religious side-thread on usenet 10 years ago that you would apologize to your opponent for in private in an instant? It's still there for everyone to see.

Basic rule - if you don't want everyone in the entire universe to see your post, don't post it. That's just reality.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Simple, make a puppet account, or an account without any reference to your identity to post your questions which you feel uncomfortable about (dont know if that is kosher with the admins though).

I am unwillingly feeling embarrassed too by having lots of early stupid questions posted all over, but honestly, nobody is born a master and we learn for as long as we live. Don't feel ashamed for being a newbie and don't hide your numbers of years and number of guitars built. Instead, try to make them as good as you can and let that speak for yourself. If you lose business from someone frowning on your low count alone, let them go no regrets.

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Build log

Funny you should mention this, Paul. I'm always second guessing what I say on open forums because of this worry. Seems to me the solution would be a forum that only paying members of the OLF could go to. I would be happy to buy a membership. Several other fourms I participate in do this as well. It seems to work well. Seems unlikely that more casual customers would buy a forum membership, so it would be fairly 'safe'. Or, at least, safer.

Chris.

Very well said Alex!

There's always emails you can send to some of your friends here Paul

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Paul : Just went to your site and looked at your work. Am not sure why you feel you ask embarassing questions. Your work looks first class and if the sound is any where close to matching the looks I'm afraid I don't see the problem. Brand recognition is the real hump to worry about.As you know a well know brand will sell just on that alone even if it sounds less than an unknown brand. All you can do is your best work and not worry about the nit pickers.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Hey Paul,
Surely there must be a luthier that you can hang out nearby? I know teaching others will help keep your edges sharp. I know you spent money to spend time with Kevin G, but less formal opportunities can be had for the price of Lunch I'm sure. Remember, there is no substitute for doing the work, and no substitute for a good teacher. You just might need to spend a day in a willing luthier's shop, and bite off a little bit (like focus on neck geometry, bracing, etc. etc.) I have craved a mentor, and Kevin and I were talking about it for a long time and it never happened. He wasn't able at the time. I suggested that he take on a few students, which you guys became. (Jealous here....) After he passed I was asked by a family member to come in and help Andy with deciphering what tools, supplies, jigs, fixtures, and machines did what. It was pretty easy to see his methods, but a very intense time for both of us. We instantly hit it off. Andy then spent a few days at my house assembling his first Lion of Judah inlay, discussing design, praying, and how he planned to move forward to his future. He is a gifted craftsman, and I think he will surpass his Dad. (what an honor)

Sometimes things just work out differently than planned. Keep moving forward!

I don't think transparency about your lack of knowledge in some area and willingness to ask for help is a bad thing at all. It always pays to be upfront with potential customers about your true experience or lack thereof. People will think much more highly of you than if there was a problem and they felt they had been misled as to your actual skills. 30 years as a surgeon taught me that. I wouldn't worry about it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I agree with Terrence, transparency is a good thing. Having said that, I also really appreciate the dialogue I have with other guitar maker-friends that takes place offline (and even better, in person). There is a casualness to those exchanges that doesn't exist online. There are 2 functioning luthier groups in Massachusetts alone (offshoots of each other) that meet once a month. All it took was for a couple people to decide to start it and it was there.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Nobody emails me.... So do I count myself as lucky or as a victim of my lameness, or my uninteresting projects?

What is important to the customer, it's the finished product. How you achieved it don't concern the buyer, but only you. And if a customer comes here to 'spy' your work, well, too bad for him. And if he can't understand that a luthier can do errors, and REPAIR THEM (invisibly), he just doesn't deserve to buy from you.

Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Whuts a customer? If I find one, will it make my wife happy?

Yo, Paul

Duh Padma, him been building a long time, a real long time and me be the first to admit me don't know diddly squat bout nuthin.

Ok so like Paul...what are you afraid of?

Being exposed?

Dude, any time you engage an on line digital interface, it instantly becomes part of the WWW and available to anybody who wants it.

Ain't no place to run, ain't no place to hide, cuz we both know you ain't gonna be leaving this place in a rocket ship. You right here with the rest of us chickens.

Now there are two ways to deal with this situation...
Change your handle and avatar pic, that way you can project whatever fantasy you want be at us.

or

get real with yourself and your customers.


blessings
Padma


PS How come you got the secret hand shake? Nobody showed me no secret handshake when me joined OFL.

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.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

I dunno, I guess I'm in a stupid mood tonight. (not uncommon). Let's keep this rolling.

OMGD! You mean my posts here could be read by anyone?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

hahahahah thanks Howard - I'm laughing with you!

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Aside from adopting a pseudonym you can research the archives of the various forums first and see if your answer lies there. Sometimes this gives a more complete understanding of the problem.
But I still ask questions. I enjoy learning and sharing what I have learned with others. I think even the best makers consider themselves "students" at some level. If I had it all figured out I probably wouldn't enjoy building so much.

Howard, no worries, sit back, have a cup of coffie and a piece of pye. <g>

Filippo (and all),

Short clarification for you. Kyle and I started building in 2008. We built 2 guitars in a class with Kevin Gallagher - and we are working on our 7th & 8th guitars since then. We have been fortunate that people have seen our build threads posted on the Acoustic Guitar Forum (AGF) and have contacted us about purchasing guitars we are building. We hide nothing with these people and are very up front with them about the fact that we have very limited experience - but so far we still have people wanting to purchase our guitars. Go figure!

As a web/print designer I understand that the end result is what the customer sees - and hopefully is happy with. But if I disclosed each and every problem I encountered during a web site build it could potentially create a sense of undo worry for the customer. It is my job to work out the bugs and issues during the development of a web site so that in the end the customer sees a proven and successful design. This is how I see the help Kyle and I are seeking on OLF. We want to grow our skills with each guitar - but don't want to create a sense of undo worry to a customer who might come to OLF. We don't see this as being deceptive or hiding - but as being good business developers and luthiers. If we ever encountered a problem in a build that we couldn't fix - we would go straight to the customer and explain the issue - and come up with a solution together.

However, I'm not sure we'd want to post on OLF, "How do we fix this side crack" and have our customer get all worried about it when we post a photo of THEIR piece of wood.

We've all has these types of things happen and I'm guessing our best resource will be to develop some close relationships on OLF so we can PM or email those people with our questions. But sometimes I would prefer to get the opinions of this community of builders on some issues - and this is best done on a thread.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

It's a double edged sword for sure.

A little information can be a dangerous thing. Our customers, or potential customers are getting more and more information. And they are forming opinions based on this information. Right or wrong, or semi right and partly wrong.

The other side is that all that information is advertising. It's selling guitars.

In the end, I'm not sure you can worry about it. There are some pretty great builders here who still ask questions and opinions. And you don't have to go back too far in the archives to find some builders you and I admire asking questions like the ones you're talking about.

Those Burner guitars look pretty freakin' good if you ask me. You've got nothing to worry about.

Neil

Hey Paul,

I understand your concern, but I think the problem at this stage lie with your customers versus you. If they are not aware of your relatively "newness" in luthiery, then it can be easy to see how your postings on the OLF may be of concern to you.

But from my experience, I know that you are very upfront and open about your build experience and history, as well as your abilities. I believe that if you have set the expectations correctly, haven't oversold your abilities and experience and the customer is onboard with that, then everything (for the most part) should be fine. Especially since you're not pricing your builds at the level of someone who had been building for 5-10 years, or someone with 30-40-50 or more builds.

Besides, I'd be ok if you ran into a problem with my build, and had to post a question here. I'd love to review how the collective minds on this knowledgeable forum would fix it ... but that's just me, since I'm also trying to figure out this luthiery thingy

Aloha,

Hen

What a crackup - a reply from a guy we're scheduled to build a guitar for down the road. How perfect is that!

Hen - I really appreciate your words. Thanks!!!

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

No problem Paul!

I'm lucky enough to have a close relative who is a well known guitar maker.... stupid questions go to him...in private;)

The only seasoned veteran of luthiery that I had access to (relatively close that is) moved 2 years ago He was great to bounce ideas off of or to ask advise of. So, now when I need help (we all need help sometimes, that's a given), I come here. There's so much information in the archives here, very rarely do I have to ask a new question, but sometimes it's good too, to see what changes folks have made over the years.

Again, being up front and honest with your customers is the best policy. Communication is big in our world and far too often, it's poor at best.

Things happen, it's the nature of working with wood. Things can break, we can have errors or our skills just aren't up to that of someone with more experience. That's also why we charge less

From the looks of things, Paul, you and Kyle are doing just fine and with the few reviews on the AGF of your guitars, I'm sure you'll continue to do fine. Don't be afraid to ask the questions you need answers for, because the only stupid question is the one not asked.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson