Official Luthiers Forum!

-

I was sort of hoping that Joe White would give us his schedule

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I was also going to say, Addam Stark has some pictures on his facebook page of him rubbing out one of Terance Kennedy's guitars. Might be worth shooting him and email and seeing if he would also share his schedule and tools.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I use a Chicago Pneumatic D/A and 600, 800, and 1000 grit blue film discs available here:

http://www.yoursource1.com/5_Deer_sandp ... deerhl.htm

I sand wet and use a spray bottle to spritz soapy water, wipe off with some industrial paper rags and there is no mess. Works well, but leaves a few "worm tracks" here and there. Those are fairly easily buffed out with Menzerna brown and I use 4 grits of Menzerna in all.
After dyeing, filling, sealing, I spray 4 coats of lacquer, drop fill (wait 3 days), sand with 600, spray 3 coats (wait 3 days), sand with 800, spray very thin 3 coats (wait 3 weeks), sand with 1000 and buff.
Works for me.

Finish with nitro, I also sand with 320 after 3 coats on top of any color coats, and again before the final coat. Cure 3 weeks - month. Wet sand with the 800 (not sure what system it's graded under) from Stew-Mac, using hand for neck and foam block for body. Most important ==> Clean the paper often with brass bristle brush, it loads up very quickly. Replace the paper when it gets dull, I use 2-3 sheets a guitar. Murphy's soap in the water does not seem to help keep the paper clean with me, but I put a few drops in anyway. I wipe the guitar down with a soft cotton cloth after each sanding pass to get off sanded lacquer and check progress. After sanding I go straight to buffing with Menzerna medium, then fine. After the fine, I take it outside and look in the sunlight (I live in FL) for fine scratches and rebuff those areas with medium, then fine again. If there are some tough areas, I'll re-sand them lightly, then buff again. I have some 1200 but rarely use it. I spend about 10-12 hours on the whole process.

_________________
Damon Wack
https://www.facebook.com/LindamonGuitars

I don't spray nitro, but I suppose it applies to any finish. For me the best solution is to have the last coat as flat and perfect as possible. I sand finer and finer between coats until the penultimate one, this one gets perfectly levelled with wet 3M Tri-mite 600. I then spray the last coat as wet and level as I can. If I fail, I level it and spray another one.
To block sand I use a bit of dish detergent in a bowl of water, I have used odourless mineral spirits as lubricant as well. Both work fine, I prefer soapy water. I've not noticed any difference in the sandpaper performance if it is soaked overnight or not, not with the 3M in any case. The quality of the sandpaper makes all the difference, for me either 3M or Norton, most of the rest is junk for the level of finish expected on guitars. I wouldn't recommend to wet sand without a hard flat block. The microscopic unevenness in the surface may not appear in most lights, but when it does, it looks terrible. I use acrylic and cork faced wood blocks of different sizes and shapes. For the neck I have a few flexible rubber blocks.
Final levelling is done wet with 3M 600, then 1200. I usually have to sand very little, which is good because my finish is very thin and sanding through is always a 2 weeks setback (hasn't happened in a long time, but you never know…). I buff with Menzerna olive, then ivory bars on two different wheels. If I missed a couple of scratches I dry sand with 3M 2000, then go back to the buffer. Absolutely no wax.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I'm in the "flat as possible before the final spray coats" camp. I level between each day's spraying with Norton P320 and then a couple of flash coats of very thin lacquer with a little retarder added so that it flows out nice and smooth. Then after 3 or 4 weeks, I can begin with P1000 and go to P1200, P1500, and then use an RO with 2000 grit abralon pads before going to the buffer. I use the Micro finishing paper from StweMac and use water with a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.

Good thread!

Chuck

_________________
"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong"
- Joseph Chilton Pearce

+1 on the scraper for final leveling before top coats. I brush on water base so sometimes you get some high spots and the scraper just rips it clean off. I've found anything below 600 grit too coarse for final leveling. I've gone through too many top coats with that grit in the past. I do try to keep the finish very very thin though.

Did you thin the lacquer? I thought about doing that schedule per John Hall's recommendation, but in the end I went with 6 coats of 66/33 lacquer to thinner, level, 6 more coats of the thinned lacquer. It's curing now.

4 weeks cure time isn't enough with Mohawk lacquer. 6 weeks is more like it. Mohawk doesn't cure as fast as Mcfaddens did.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Funny Woody, I found Mowhawk to cure faster than Mcfaddens. That's why I switched to Mowhawk.

Well, I spent some time sanding at 1000 wet today and got all the scratches out then I went to 1200 then 1500. And I started to buff with #18 menzerna and it's looking really good. #16 Menzerna next and then well see about a swirl remover.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Oh, and this is for Howard (I'm kidding I hope you know)

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

??

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Again, kidding

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

-

Sure Tony, hope it helps. I go for about 80-90% or so level. You have to remember that a D/A can take off material pretty fast, so 600 grit is a good one to start with wet. I also double spray around the edges, so 3 coats is 6. I power sand the sides too, but hand sand the waist. If I remember right, the D/A is a 5/32" orbit, and I always make sure the H & L pad is in good shape...flat. Usually takes me around 40 minutes to do a box. The spray bottle is great and keeps things from getting sloppy wet.

I've never gotten what seems to be the prevalent practice here of using epoxy both for the pore filler and a base coat of finish. You won't have this problem if you use it only as a pore filler and sand back to the wood.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hey Rod, I've been using EM6000 and had similar issues with sanding scratches. Here are my "rules" that I came up with that have been working for me with this finish:

1) Never use the ROS.
2) Start with 400 grit dry, then go to 600,1200, & 2000 wet

I didn't get rid of the sanding scratches on the buffer until I went to 2000 grit. Then all of a sudden, it started looking like a real gloss finish...!

I hope this helps!

Trev

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

First off I want to tank everyone for their input into this thread. IMO, it's been the best if not top 5 threads EVER on leveling a finish.

I'm feeling better about my finishes after heeding some advise from you all. I'll be doing a few things different in the future, but I wanted to say thanks

Here's the results of my efforts over the past few days.





And she'll be singing tomorrow



Thanks again!

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I see James Orr's note on Festool ROS. I just got the Festool vacum for the Festool ROS and intended on using it for the initial leveling with 400 grit. James do you use the vacuum system?

Danny R. Little

Ya, it's just my bastard job to get my home made bridge clamping jig to work right. I have a 3/4" plywood caul on the inside and then there's the bridge plate, top, bridge and then the clamp which is about 1" thick.....it works, and that's the main thing....

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

-