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I am lying out a 12 string fretboard using the taper determined by the nut width and the width at the 14 fret, my question relates the the spacing at the bridge, should both of the E strings be the same distance from the edge of the fretboard or should they slightly taper inwards??

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MK5acoustics.com

I always try to keep a constant distance between the border of the fretboard and the string, on both E strings that is. Mayube other builders do it differently...

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Wes: I make the space increase as you go up the board. But I think it may be very much a player choice one way or the other. So,if building for someone a talk about it with that person may be the way to go.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

You do not want the same distance from the edge all the way down the fretboard. This is one thing many builders and many factories get wrong. I have heard dozens of players complain about this.

Here is a guideline for two different nut widths.

For a standard 1.75" nut -- the width of the fretboard @ the 12th fret is equal to the string spacing at the saddle.

For a 1 13/16" nut -- the width of the fretboard @ the 11th fret is equal to the string spacing at the saddle.

I don't build many guitars with wider nuts -- but if you map out the fretboard, then you would be able to figure out which fret should be equal to the saddle spacing. The value of this system is that it is only dependent upon the nut width -- you can use many different saddle spacings with it.

That's been my experience as well. One reason is bending notes. You can't bend as much near the nut.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Well, that certainly makes sense. Although I have not had any complaints from my customers.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

My rule of thumb is spacing at the 14th is the same as bridge pin spacing, regardless of other dimensions. It is not so much for bending, but rather because the high E string is so easy to fret out as you go up the fretboard. Some players prefer even more space between the string and the edge of the fretboard, but so far IME they're the exception.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Simon,

So, from the nut to the 12th fret there is a taper then straight from there to the end of the neck, at the width of the bridge string spacing plus 1/8" both sides? Thanks for this info as I have tapered all of my necks so far, as it seemed common practice.

Is there a noticible or visually objectionable "point" where the taper and straight lines meet?

Danny R. Little

No, no! The entire length of the fingerboard is tapered! Measuring at the 12th (or 11th or 14th) is just a convenience -- the fingerboard taper continues toward the bridge.

Well sure. Now that makes sense! I have a talent for misinterpreting the written word.

Thanks

Danny R. Little

Thanks everyone...it makes sense to me now...

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MK5acoustics.com

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be missing information in these two statements. The way I see it, one could very well have these specified correspondencies between bridgepin spacing and fretboard width at 14th fret, but still have equal spacement from the border of the fretboard and the E strings. It all depends on the string spacing at the nut.

Am I missing simething?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I build guitars with a lot of varying nut width dimensions. 1 13/16" is probably my most requested.

A 1.75" nut width with the fretboard width at the 12th fret equal to the saddle spacing. For any given nut/saddle width, I want to duplicate how the high and low e strings "interact" with the fretboard taper.

This means that if you increase the nut width, the taper will be smaller than my "ideal" past the 12th fret. I compensate for this by moving the ( saddle spacing = fretboard width) to a fret closer to the nut --- therefore, preserving my "ideal" fretboard. This is why for a 1 13/16" nut, I have the saddle spacing at the 11th (really about the imaginary 11.25th). For 1 7/8", it would likely be about 10.5th fret.

In other words, my goal is to preserve that initial taper. I know that a number of very good builders follows this same path. It is important to note that a player's hand plays the string spacing not the neck width. And extra 1/32" or so taper outside the strings farther up the neck isn't going to bother anyone -- but it will definitely prevent the strings from slipping off the frets while bending. I also don't bevel my frets as much as some -- I bevel at about 20 degrees.

Some of you might reach a different "conclusion" than I have -- that's fine -- it is all about the customer and their needs. It has been my experience that the specs I quoted are greatly appreciated by the player. Your mileage may vary!!!!

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Simon

Maybe I am being naive, but is it not just a very simple matter of elementary geometry ?

You decide your string spacing at the nut, , and you decide your saddle spacing.

You have now defined a taper, and if you extend the lines of both E strings far enough past the nut, they will meet in a point.

If you then draw 2 lines from this point passing through the edges of the nut it will define the edges of the fretboard.

Obviously not something you would actually draw out, but simple enough to calculate using trigonometry, I would have thought.

Hi Murmac,
Yes, that will work but will not yield the results I am talking about. At the nut, my outer strings are inset from the fretboard edge by 1/8". At the very end of my fretboard (20th fret), the strings are inset by about 3/16" to 1/4" (not sure of exact dimensions). The reason we do this is to allow the player to perform bends on the outer strings without the strings going off the edge of the fretboard. Very skilled players who are knowledgeable about their instruments will readily point to this as being an issue with many builders and factory made guitars. This is one of those subtle things that many will never catch onto but is just part of taking your guitars to the next level in terms of practical design.

Of course, you can lay out every fretboard on paper and easily determine the fretboard dimensions. But the little rule that I posted (Laurent's is the same but does not yield quite as much room outside the strings as I use) allows you to accommodate a wide variety of nut and saddle spacings without drawing up blueprints each time you use a different spacing.

Simon,

PM sent....

Josh

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!

Trigonometry could help I am sure, but this is not rocket science either. The goal is to provide a bit more real estate on the edges of the fretboard as it goes up. As you get toward the middle of the string the tension lowers, the string feels more elastic and it becomes easier to "fret out", especially when aplying vibrato to a note. The same problem exists, to a much lesser extent, on the low E string.

Alain, you're not missing anything: my nut dimensions vary little, from 1 3/4" to 1 25/32" and 1 13/16", so the difference is absolutely negligible at the neck/body junction, in my mind at least. If I were to build with a super skinny (1 5/8"), or super wide (2") nut, I would of course reconsider my 14th fret principle accordingly.

Some builders offset their necks in order to leave a hair more space between the high E string and edge of the fretboard than on the low E string (I do), it may look a bit weird at first, but makes a lot of sense.
As with everything there are diminishing returns, and personally I think a neck that widens too much (as advocated by Pierre Bensusan and later Larry Pattis) feels cumbersome.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I'm right with laurent on this one. I inset the hi-e string more at the nut then the low-e string and this carries through the whole length of the board while at the same time going down the length of the board the board itself tapers out more then the strings, but not much.

I have actually thought about running the low-e string along the same taper as the fret board (same edge distance the whole length) while allowing the board edge to taper out from the hi-e string. BUt I think that might mess with my intonation.

Just to clarify, there is definitely such a thing as too much string inset. There are some players who will want more than others and some that will want less. The key is to find what "most" players will like and use that as your standard. If you put the string spacing at the saddle in the 12th to 14th fret range -- then I believe you will find yourself in the ballpark where most players will not take issue. And then you can fine tune your own methodology as you see fit.

Thanks for clarifying that , Laurent.



I also do that, espacially on my flamencos, where the frequent use of pull-offs, combined with high speed playing tend to make the high E string (1st string) slide off of the fretboard. This does not seem to be an issue with the low E string (6th string).

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)