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Life is an inherently dangerous experience, this is undeniable. I would personally hate to think what a truly safe existence would be like, probably meaningless. Creating technology or technique to make some of the riskier aspects less risky is all well and good, really I am all for it, but it should not be "mandatory". There will always be risks, and to call one risk more or less important than another is a matter of opinion, opinions vary. No one really has the right to tell me what I can or cannot do, provided I am not infringing on the same of others. They may think they do, and carry this out through litigation or force, but that makes it no less fallacious. When I am making dangerous cuts on my table saw I am not putting anyone else in danger, and I have the ability to lock out the machine so any unexperienced individuals cannot use it without my supervision.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you dang well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."

Really, if I want to go cut my hand off on my table saw that is up to me. I am going to be the one paying for it, one way or another.

That reminds me, I have been cutting some risky dados and need to examine the process.

Hey, we can do to ourselves what we deem safe and all,
but, if one has a kid helping us in the shop,
or someone that is not with it as we think we are, be careful.
My worst injuries to myself has been with non powered handtools!
Razor knife, sharp chisel, go figure!

Almost all injuries have consequences well beyond the injured party. Kill yourself in a car because you chose not to wear a seat belt (or motorcycle sans helmet) and your children loose a father, your wife a husband or your parents a child. A closed head injury puts you in a nursing home the rest of your life with all the expenses to your family or the state that come with it. Loss of appendages can affect your ability to provide for your family. We don't exist in a vacuum. You can take chances and we all do, but you have to weigh the consequences not only to yourself but those dear to you. Not using proven technology to make life safer is selfish behavior but I'm not casting stones, I've been guilty of plenty of it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I too have been using power tools most of my life without injury and used to think this way until the day I slipped and my thumb brushed the bandsaw blade while resawing slices off a log a couple of years ago.

It wasn't that bad a cut, but it forever changed the way I view tools.

Very glad the sawstop saved your thumb.

-jd

Glad to see you're OK, Peter!

I wish it was available over here, I'd get it. Of course I never do mistakes either, but if I ever should do one, it would be nice if the penalty was not so severe as to lose a thumb.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Firstly, Peter, I'm so glad that you're injury was minor. It could have been worse, and I'm thankful that ideas like the Saw Stop are out there. I believe that EVERY safety device or procedure possible should be incorporated and used to keep peoples fingers and limbs attatched to their bodies. Period.
However, to the comments murmac and others have made, I heartily agree. It seems to me what they are saying is this: The first rule of tool safety is that YOU must take responsibility for YOUR OWN safety. I agree that they are not accidents, they are miscalculations, moments of inattention, a gamble with your body parts, whatever else you'd like to call them, but they are NOT accidents.The minute that we say to ourselves,"It's not my fault that such and such a thing took place, it was just an accident", we throw that very first rule of safety out the window. WE, and ONLY we are or can be reponsible for our safety while working around quickly spinning cutting blades, or any other machinery that has moving parts involved.
I spent time in the USAF, where I was an Airframe Repair Technician(sheet metal worker, basically). We used some heavy duty equipment, meant to cut armored plating. It was constantly drilled into my head that there was no such thing as an accident when operating that machinery. I and only I could prevent injury to myself and insure that I left the Air Force with all of the parts I enlisted with.It's the same with a table saw, or anything else we use in luthiery.
Now, I'm not chastising Peter, nor do I think Murmac and others were. I'm just pointing out something that is of utmost importance to keep in mind. There, but for the Grace of God, go I.
I also believe that Peter's motivation in posting this thread was to not only praise the use of the saw stop, but to caution others to be careful. He could have just ignored it and kept on working. Kudos to him for posting, and giving us a thread to once again discuss the merits of shop safety.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

I spent over 30 years in construction and have seen saws do a lot of damage.
One kid who had a collection of over twenty guitars and cut off three fingers.
Of course he did something he shouldn't have done.

As a superintendent I always complained about the added safety that was always being forced on us as most of the time it slowed production and added to the costs. At the same time I remember a few times I was glad those new safety items were place saving me from calling someone's wife and telling her what hospital her husband was in.

anyway my point is I was on the other end of the saw that Peter was using. I and He will agree he shouldn't have put his his thumb in a position to be cut... but it happened.... in a split second .... the saw made a loud clunk and Peter and I looked at each other as to what just happened and he then realized from a small scratch like cut on his thumb that the saw really works!!

I'm sure glad I didn't have to spend another day in the waiting room of a hospital hoping that they can put someone back together well enough to continue doing what they love.

If I could afford one I would own one and I have years and years of experience and have never done anything like that yet in my life.

Dennis

Peter, aren't you glad you shared these pictures? Glad you're ok. I've been around table saws daily for 34 years now. I still have all of mine. There's not a day that goes by when I don't feel thankful for that.

I feel like I know the things that can go wrong and avoid them (so far so good) but the truth is, I'm a human being and subject to varying emotions, stress, being tired, rushed, over-worked and while it's easy to say just don't be in the shop at these times but when you are making a living this way it isn't always so easy to just remove yourself. This probably falls into the stupid category that some are talking about. I agree we don't see many accidents but I also think that people should go a bit easy on someone that injures themselves. The slap has already happened and no one needs to be told what they've done wrong. I'm sure Peter knows exactly what he did wrong and I would bet my life savings he won't do it again.

Those that own Sawstops, bravo!! Everyone gets to make their own choices and that's not such a bad one. Nothing more than an insurance policy in my book.

Here's wishing you a speedy recovery, Peter!

Well said.

Peter, I too am glad that you're ok

To err is human; to forgive, divine "Alexander Pope"

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This has been a verrry good thread ! Alot of attention focused on safety , a reminder we all need .

I give this thread 2 THUMBS UP !!

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Peter,

Bravo - thanks for posting this thread.
If I buy a tablesaw, I'll buy a sawstop. I respect all the sharp tools in my shop, but also know that I can be distracted at times. I take safety seriously, but would rather replace a $6 blade than live with less than 10 fingers.

Open question - who has a link or document which outlines some necessary safety procedures for working with bandsaws? I've got the basics printed on the side of my Grizzly (use a pushstick when pushing the wood in the direction of the blade, don't consume alcohol when using, etc.) but I've got to believe there's some more comprehensive information out there.

Thanks.

For that matter this might be a good spot for some basic table saw safety info. I know I could use some.

Thanks,

John

Here's a Saw Stopping option that works on flesh proximity to the blade guard instead of contact with the blade and doesn't wreck your blade or cause loss of production: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/ It isn't in production yet and I don't know how long they've been working on it.

Anything like this , 100% effective or not is a step in the right direction . ( no reflection on your comment Todd , I follow your line of thought ) I like the looks of the one in the vid , however it does "seem" to limit the size material one could cut . Which may not be all bad either .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

We all do stupid things from time to time. At any given moment, yes, you can avoid an accident by being careful, but to think you will go your entire life without ever doing anything stupid is, itself, being stupid. The only question is whether you will be fortunate enough not to suffer serious consequences.

I don't have a SawStop, but I would like to if circumstances (both $ and shop-space) permitted. I'm glad the technology is available. Shame on the industry for refusing to even make it an option for so many years when the inventor was shopping it around.

Interesting thread. I agree that Safety is the most desirable first step in any process using equipment that can maim or kill. While the saw stop is a great value for added protection, I also agree that it can enhance ones thoughts that they are less likely to get hurt.

Example:
What if the one time someone has the SawStop Brake disengeged (there is an override switch for this reason) for cutting say treated lumber that is high moisture content?
The saw is now as deadly as any other manufactures and offers no additional protection.

I know of an individual that refuses to take any courses to learn woodworking (which it has been suggested many times) and purports to have many years doing woodworking. HE has plenty of money and buys tools at a whim. He also bought a SawStop when they first came out. Since then he has bit his fingers 13 times in the past 15 months. Setting off the brake and damaging his blades. The point is, he looks at the technology as his safety net. I'm glad this guy actually has a SawStop for the reason he still has fingers and hands. Realistically he should not own a saw period or any other power tool in my opinion, but that is my thought, I worry for his grand kids when they are around him.

I will not give out his name, but if you happen to go to the Woodcraft in Addison Tx. I'm sure if you ask someone there they will tell you the stories of this guy. There are others about this individual that would and should scare anyone to death by his actions.

So enough about story telling.

Basic Safety comes first, period. Enhanced tools will allow some additional leeway due to a lapse in whatever to hopefully minimize an event, but any event should more so, enhance and instill in the operators brain, the need to learn and practice safe operation of any and all power tools, as well as be aware of others around them when operating the same.

Just my 0.02 cents worth,

BTW glad you are ok.

Mike

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I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.

I've seen the owner doing a live demo on a TV show. He very carefully pushed his finger into the -side- of the blade so as to set off the system without having to rely on it. It was a crystal clear view into his character.

The guy's a pure opportunist. He's never offered licensing at a reasonable rate, and he's tried once or more to use the legal system to force the technology on the market (at his over-inflated price). It's one thing to charge whatever you want for your product, but it's completely another to price the product unreasonably and then try to use the legal system and emotional appeals to bully other companies into buying your product at said price. That's not so different from racketeering.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I have been following this thread closely , I agree the inventor is a twerp , and many valid arguements have been made . Safety needs to be first and foremost .

However , lets NOT lose sight of the fact that Peterm still has a thumb . IT WORKED.

Aparently there is an idiot in texas that shouldnt even have sharp pencils , HOWEVER at least 13 times it WORKED, he still has his hands /thumbs .

I am NOT disagreeing that the need is there to focus on safety , and I am NOT disagreeing with the valid points most have made !

it STILL boils down to IT WORKED ! Peterm is happy it did ! I am happy it did for him .

I cannot help but wonder how many people will say , its a ruse , it may or may not work , it is a gamble ! And yet will go out same day and buy a lottery ticket !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

...and refuse to use their seatbelts and continue to smoke cigarettes. Can't fix stupid.

I'm not sure if the numbers on the Whirlwind site are accurate now but they are quoting a 2003 Consumer Product Safety Commision Hazard Screening Report http://www.whirlwindtool.com/GO-hazard_tools.pdf on power tools and workshop equipment:
Table Saw Dangers-
58 people per week suffer amputations
1,000 people per week injured in U.S.
Annual injury cost estimate $2 billion
All saw dust is now classified as carcinogenic

Even if these numbers are half as much now (doubt it...probably much more), the problem is not trivial and the industry has done nothing other than providing blade guards and splitters which are not effective for whatever reason. Riving knives are a step in the right direction but much too late and too scarce. Their head is in the sand to the obvious pain and suffering their product is causing in their biggest market, the Consumer/non-Industrial market where the Idiot Pool runs very deep and gets deeper with every second. They better get off their rearends and fix this problem. The Ryobi lawsuit is just spitting in the ocean.

Just an FYI for you Saw Stop owners. I just found out that if you set off your Saw Stop brake due to a Flesh/ finger. Send the brake back to Saw stop and they will replace it free. Somehow they can determine what set off the brake. ??? Not sure how but I just confirmed this with the Wood Craft manager. ?

So give it try if you happen to be unfortunate enough to set off your brake in this manner.

Mike

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I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.

"Number of owned dogs in US: 77.5M
Number of dog bites in the US: 4.5 M/year
Injuries per owned dog per year: 0.06 dog bites/owned dog

Number of tablesaws in the US: 6M to 10M
Number of tablesaw injuries per year: 31,500
Injuries per tablesaw per year: 0.004 injuries/tablesaw"

I think this points out two facts. One, people are idiots regarding training their dogs and two, I bet the reason for the low injuries per table saw owned is that the vast majority of the people who own them have stuff piled on them in their garage and the saws are never used.

Unlike tablesaws, dogs are always "on".

Peter

but a SawStop will never bite your HotDog. Ba-dah-bumph

My dog gets continuous use in the house. For the table saw I have to go out to the garage and only provide it the opportunity to attack a couple of times a week.

Of course with the dog I’m much more comfortable around it and probably let my guard down more often. That’s when it gets me.

Oh my goodness, John. I hope you don't lose an arm to that!
Mike

Double trouble!

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