Official Luthiers Forum!

This year I was bitten by the guitar building bug. I haven't constructed my first yet as it is too cold in my garage shop.

So, until late this spring, I am collecting information, books, tools and materials.

Now, being a hill-william (sophisticated redneck), I am interested in bluegrass / country music and it's not a stretch of the imagination to decide to build a Martin D-28 dreadnaught.

Anyone doing a little research will find out that the standard from which all others are compared is a 1937 Martin D-28 (or pre-war). This guitar is known for it's 'sound' and the sound comes from materials, design and craftmanship. (design is great no need to discuss, craftsmanship, well we will see about my craftmanship.)

These guitars had brazillian rosewood back and sides until the 60's when brazil decided to place an embargo on the wood stating that all the woods would be resawn in brazil.

In my investigations, I was lead to believe that the reason for this emabargo was to protect the brazillian rosewood trees, like it's an endangered species. As one goes deeper, they will find that this might not be the case in fact. I have been reading a lot of stuff stating the reason for the embargo was to promote brazillian business, meaning there is more profit in doing the resawing locally, on brazillian soil, than exporting logs.

If that is true, the supply of the wood elsewhere in the wood is not in any sort of trouble, or rather no further troubles. Laws of supply and demand will and is governing the trade of brazillian rosewood.

Personally I don't care if my tonewoods are resawn in outer mongolia or not. My concern is whether or not it's available at all.

My question to everyone is twofold.

1. Is this a bogus embargo under the guise of 'endangered species' ?
2. If so, why don't we see more brazilian dealers in tonewoods ? (even if it's expensive)

Best regards,

CN

P.S. I have found a bunch of brazillian (broaden eBay search to Worldwide) dealers on eBay selling some sets. But it's a gamble at best I think, some wood looks 'wierd' but many people bought sets and are happy.

You did not acknowledge the CITES treaty

No. It is not bogus. It may be a bit over reactive though. There are plenty of trees but they are disaperaring at an alraming rate due to trash and burn deforestation. However not because of harvisting. Like most trees that get on the endangered list with time quanity is replenished but these are not mature trees yet. If the reason for the embargo was to keep the resawing in Brazil then the embargo would exclude those pieces that are resawn in Brazil. It is my understanding this is not the case. Instead the embargo excludes only boards documented pre band. wich does nothing to bolster Brazils resawing industry.

I was under the impression that D. Nigra is very, very far gone even for a CITES I listed species. Quasi-extinct, even. Anyway, the endagered nature of the wood is very real. The CITES ban on cutting was 1989, though, wasn't it?

As for an embargo on board exports, India's doing much the same (only exporting sawed products), and yes, mostly for promoting industry.

Brazil in the past did what many countries did was to place an export restriction on any wood that was unprocessed...in other words no logs but if those logs had been processed into boards or slabs then it could be exported. That was ab embargo.

The CITES treaty is part of a much larger global effort to preserve both plant and animal species that are endangered and became international law in all countries that honor that treaty which is most countries. Under the CITES treaty it outlawed the sales and distribution of anyaffected species on the list with the exception of wood that had been cut and/or processed before the treaty went into effect. Wood producers were given a window of opportunity at that time to declare what stock they had and it is that stock that is legal to sell. Producers are supposed to be able to show documentation as to the age and source of the wood. That is very difficult and expensive to do and quality dealers have gone to that effort (just ask Steve of Colonial about the process). Having said that there are wood stashes that show up frequently that is obviously is old growth and could (given the effort of getting the paperwork) be legal under CITES. Most sellers will not and can not do that so most of the BRW is sold is either old but undocumented or newly harvested and sold under questionable circumstances.

There have been sellers on eBay that said in their listing that "the wood is still wet and freshly cut" and when people have reported the violation to eBay the listing gets changed to "old growth" and they continue to sell.

While there still are brazilian rosewood trees in Brazil what is virtually extinct are old growth stands and the trees in all regions of Brazil are to varying extents hybridized or vary from the original species as seen in old growth trees. They are still beautiful but can not compare to old growth.

The loss of old growth trees is a big problem everywhere as wood is the planets most renewable resource but without carefull replanting using either root or seedstock from the old growth trees each successive generation will either be weaker or will have hybridized with other related species in the same area because of the loss of habitat.

If you are looking for incredible old growth Brazilian Rosewood look at the sets that Steve at Colonial Tonewoods has to see the difference between old growth and what you may have seen on eBay. While they are costly, they are a precious unreplaceable resource that is worth being used in the finest instruments so that the cost will not be a barrier.

It was hundreds of years of exploitation of BRW and other woods (mahogany is on its way to the same state) the restriction may be too late although tree plantations are helping to keep some species commercially viable. In the 60's and 70's I used to see whole containers of Brazilian Rosewood come off the docks in Brooklyn that were then cut up into handles for knives and cutlery!

[QUOTE=Brad Goodman] You did not acknowledge the CITES treaty[/QUOTE]

I didn't want to refer to the treaty for two reasons.

1. If indeed the embargo is profit driven, it would make this reference invalid and moot.
2. The references in the CITES database (http://www.cites.org/) is, how should I put it? It's specious at best. Little more than saying, 'yeah, it's on the list.' no reasoning, ryhme or current status like other species (i.e. rhino).

Like all embargo, treaties, trade agreements, trade restrictions, etc. this is no different IMO.

Trade restrictions are 'sold' to the public as in their best interests. For example, Japanese cars are under strict tarifs and taxes in the US. This has been sold to the public under the guise, 'to protect your safety and wellbeing.' In fact, all it protects is the special interest groups, Big 3 automakers while harming the consumers with high prices, by allowing them to sell at the prices they do without the effects of 'free trade'.

Best regards,

Rick

Nevertheless, those coutries that abide by the Cites agreement will arrest anyone who is "illegally" importing or exporting BRW. Case in point, a few months back (a year or so ago?) some folks in Spain were arrested for illegally importing BRW logs into the country. They were thrown in jail and the logs seized by the government, to be sent back to Brazil I believe.
It might be all political, but then it might be a legitimate case of an endangered species. We may never know. Certainly as Shawn so eloquently stated, the old growth wood is gone.
Just as important, I would like to know just exactly what Brazil is doing toward reforestation of the species. I've heard some interesting stories. As far as I know, they aren't doing anything at all. That's an even bigger crime in my book.Don Williams38688.5918865741

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Nevertheless, those coutries that abide by the Cites agreement will arrest anyone who is "illegally" importing or exporting BRW. Case in point, a few months back (a year or so ago?) some folks in Spain were arrested for illegally importing BRW logs into the country. They were thrown in jail and the logs seized by the government, to be sent back to Brazil I believe. [/QUOTE]

I can believe that. I am sure in this case, Mens rea (intent to commit the crime) was apparent. ("actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea" - "the act will not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty")


[QUOTE=Don Williams]
It might be all political, but then it might be a legitimate case of an endangered species. We may never know. Certainly as Shawn so eloquently stated, the old growth wood is gone.
Just as important, I would like to know just exactly what Brazil is doing toward reforestation of the species. I've heard some interesting stories. As far as I know, they aren't doing anything at all. That's an even bigger crime in my book.[/QUOTE]

As far as being a legitimate case on the list, Im not so certain. another species watchdog, redlist, does not list Dalbergia nigra as 'endangered'. As a matter of fact, they go into great deal about 'their' classifications and explains that Dalbergia nigra is 'Vullnerable A1cd' as of 1998. Which is the least of the 'threatened' levels.

From worst to best

1. Extinction - Extinct (period)
2. Extinction - Extinct in the Wild
3. Threatened - Critically Endangered
4. Threatened - Endangered
5. Threatened - Vulnerable *** Dalbergia nigra, 1998 ***
6. Lower Risk - Conservation Dependent
7. Lower Risk - Near Threatened
8. Lower Risk - Least Concern

They also list the threats as

1. Habitat Loss/Degradation - Extraction - Wood - Selective logging (ongoing)
2. Habitat Loss/Degradation - Extraction - Wood - Clear-cutting (ongoing)
3. Changes in native species dynamics - Predators (ongoing)

Each of these are ongoing which implies that nothing is being done. You'd think that even Brazil would stop clear cutting. Selective logging just means they pick the ones they want to cut.

Someone mentioned that the oldest (old wood) ones were harvested and that is a mojor contributor to BRW being on the endangered species list. I don't think that's true. Old stock is usually hollowed out, assumably by predators, therefore useless to any sort of woodworking.

Also, I read (can't remember source) that BRW can reach a height of 75 feet and 3-4 foot diameter in as little as 5 years. Pretty amazing for a hardwood.

The IUCN red list reports a poor regeneration 'possibly' due to predation by rodents. (Mice eating the seeds?)

Also, many watch lists report BRW is endangered in 'accessible' locations. Hard to tell what this statement really means, but appears to me that it's on the list because it's being clear cut from sub-urban, urban and cities of brazil and is fine in remote locations. (I.e. off the highways, maybe where people just don't go.)

Sorry for rambling, just thought I'd post some points that really make things seem 'wierd'.

As far as Brazil commiting a crime of not doing anything at all: What if nothing 'should' be done? (As in there isn't a problem, but rather its a bogus agreement.)

-Rick

PS. Don't think something like this could be bogus? The Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council still reports the area as a disaster area for funding but it's absolutely pristine now.

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Case in point, a few months back (a year or so
ago?) some folks in Spain were arrested for illegally importing BRW logs
into the country. They were thrown in jail and the logs seized by the
government, to be sent back to Brazil I believe.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, those logs were all sent to me. I'm sawing up sets and sending
them to my agent in Brazil to sell on Ebay, which is probably why you
thought they got sent to Brazil. It's roundabout, but it draws a lot less
suspicion that way. The embargo was indeed a plot to run up the value of
the stuff. Fortunately for me, I'm in on it; you guys are not. Neither were
those guys in Spain. We can't tolerate freelancers like them if we're going
to keep this thing going. What I'm wondering, though is how somebody
got wind of us. Is it really that easy to find all this on the net? Maybe
they just applied the general principle that that which interferes with the
workings of the free market must be some kind of nefarious plot, and got
suspicious. You can't keep the truth from outing, I guess. Oh, well. I got
my stash from those Spanish logs, anyway.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard,
Does the word smarta$$ mean anything to you?
You had me laughing thanks!
Tracy

I doubt very seriously the logs were, or will be, sent back to Brazil. First off...who would they send them to and secondly who's gonna pay the freight.

May I ask? In the world of woodworking where I was active before trying to re-enter luthiery(quality walnut in fine rifle and shotgun stocks)sap wood was considered very undesirable from an appearance and stability standpoint. Much of what I have seen on ebay(called Brazilian) has significant sapwood content.I am probably wrong but I thought that the sapwood indicated the harvest of less mature trees and the sapwood would be softer and unpredictable. Could someone clarify please?

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]
Actually, those logs were all sent to me. I'm sawing up sets and sending
them to my agent in Brazil to sell on Ebay, which is probably why you
thought they got sent to Brazil. It's roundabout, but it draws a lot less
suspicion that way. The embargo was indeed a plot to run up the value of
the stuff. Fortunately for me, I'm in on it; you guys are not. Neither were
those guys in Spain. We can't tolerate freelancers like them if we're going
to keep this thing going. What I'm wondering, though is how somebody
got wind of us. Is it really that easy to find all this on the net? Maybe
they just applied the general principle that that which interferes with the
workings of the free market must be some kind of nefarious plot, and got
suspicious. You can't keep the truth from outing, I guess. Oh, well. I got
my stash from those Spanish logs, anyway.[/QUOTE]

Laughing My Stinkin' A_ _ Off...
Howard, that was the best post I've seen in a long while.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

All Brazilian Rosewood logs have sapwood regardless of the size of the tree. It is the newer outer growth rings. The stock I have, the sapwood is just as hard and stable as the heartwood. You could build a house out of the sapwood alone without fear of structural weakness. I suppose in the past there was such an abundance that they considered the sapwood as something cosmetically displeasing. The current use of the sapwood could have very well started because the stock wasn't wide enough to build the back of a dread size guitar...it caught on and now has become asthetically acceptable. A new trendy thing..Brazilwood38688.8104513889

[QUOTE=Brazilwood] I doubt very seriously the logs were, or will be, sent back to Brazil. First off...who would they send them to and secondly who's gonna pay the freight. [/QUOTE]

and thirdly... the Brazil wood dealers would glady sell it again! haha

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] [QUOTE=Don Williams] Case in point, a few months back (a year or so
ago?) some folks in Spain were arrested for illegally importing BRW logs
into the country. They were thrown in jail and the logs seized by the
government, to be sent back to Brazil I believe.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, those logs were all sent to me. I'm sawing up sets and sending
them to my agent in Brazil to sell on Ebay, which is probably why you
thought they got sent to Brazil. It's roundabout, but it draws a lot less
suspicion that way. The embargo was indeed a plot to run up the value of
the stuff. Fortunately for me, I'm in on it; you guys are not. Neither were
those guys in Spain. We can't tolerate freelancers like them if we're going
to keep this thing going. What I'm wondering, though is how somebody
got wind of us. Is it really that easy to find all this on the net? Maybe
they just applied the general principle that that which interferes with the
workings of the free market must be some kind of nefarious plot, and got
suspicious. You can't keep the truth from outing, I guess. Oh, well. I got
my stash from those Spanish logs, anyway.[/QUOTE]

Howard, what is your address again?

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Gladly

[QUOTE=Brazilwood] I doubt very seriously the logs were, or will be, sent back to Brazil. First off...who would they send them to and secondly who's gonna pay the freight. [/QUOTE]

From what I heard, the logs went into government stock houses slated either for legal resale or for destruction depending on administration.

Interestingly, the Spanish were caught out because they were buying logs without permits from the Germans. I think it's part of the Odessa conspiracy-how else could wood from Brazil end up in Germany?

Warmes regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com

Embargo, Schmargo - Yeah, me and Howard took most of the lot, due to our close association with the Longshoreman's union .. go to my website and you can see a pic of me grinning with my share of the haul.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Tony, I think you need to ship all the rosewood to me immediately. Did I happen to mention I now work for the US Customs Dept? Think about it...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Tony on a serious note WOW! Beautiful guitars on your site. In closeup of the neck heel with the "K" what wood is the center neck laminate? Gorgeous.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Well, my good friend Steve @ Colonial Tonewoods is the one to talk to about old growth BRW. I certainly trust his input on this subject above anyone elses. My 2 cents

Hey Bob and Don,

Customs schustoms ... come and get me !!! Bring warm hat and boots, its cold up here. I am the third igloo on the right, just past the trading post with the wooden Indian out front - could you pick me up Maple syrup on your way past ??? Look for the smoke from my hot pipe.

Bob, thats a chunk of Koa, from the same log as the binding and heel cap (and the doubleneck body as well, plus its Jumbo single neck brother, not yet completed), courtesy Bruce at Notable.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I'm inclined to believe that the embargo is really in place because the wood is seriously endangered. The environmental movement and Big Lumber and the Brazilian government don't exactly get along and the idea that they are in cahoots to artificailly inflate the price of rosewood just doesn't sound likely to me.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I'm inclined to believe that the embargo is really in place because the wood is seriously endangered. The environmental movement and Big Lumber and the Brazilian government don't exactly get along and the idea that they are in cahoots to artificailly inflate the price of rosewood just doesn't sound likely to me.[/QUOTE]

Good point Mike.

Just really frustrating. My family (sister & mother) has had exchange students from Brazil a few times. Each of the students have said that they didn't know why there is such an endangered label on BRW. But considering these guy were less than 18 years old, it's hard to gauge whether or not their views are absolute.

Best regards,

Rick