Official Luthiers Forum!

As a first time builder, I just want to say how glad I am I found this forum! I found it just a few days ago and already I'm getting some great info....and getting to see some sweet pics of seriously cool instruments.

I'm working on my first guitar and I'm kinda stuck on my first task. I'm trying to join my top with a Wood River #6 and a basic shooting board. I can't seem to get a straight edge/joint with no light seepage to save my life. I've spent hours working on this and just when I think I'm close, I seem to get further away. I have a feeling my technique is the problem. Especially when I see YouTube videos where dudes make a few quick passes and move on to the next step. I've been stuck here for weeks!!!

Does anyone have any advice on planing or joining the top for a new guy? Your help is greatly appreciated.

-John

Hi John, you might try using a smaller plane; I, for one, find the larger planes difficult to control for this job.
Also, this task requires a super sharp blade and a very fine setting; and a slow deliberate stroke.
regards
pvg

Or...you can cheat on your first top and use a router with a flush cutting bit. I have a steel level that my grandfather used to own, and the side bar on it is dead flat. Make sure to check this before you pick one up at home depot because the new ones aren't always flat. I lay the level on my bench with the flat edge facing me. Then, I fold my plates so they are book matched, I put the "spine" on top of the level, and butt it up right to the edge with a tiny bit of hang over. Clamp a longer flat board on top for your router to ride on, and run the flush cut bit with the bearing running along the side of the level. When you un-clamp the joint will be flawless...every time. You just have to go slow with the router, and make sure you dont rock from side to side as you are cutting. It helps to go in the direction that the router trys to pull itself along in this case, because you dont want the router to get a hold of a chunk and tear it out. If you want a pic, let me know.

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http://www.sixgunguitars.com

Lots of good advice here, sharp blade, thinnest possible cut, smooth even stroke, etc. One thing I do is to just plane one board after I get real close planing both.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

If you are really close, you can retract or remove the plane blade, stick some 220 grit sandpaper on the sole, and shoot till you can't see daylight. Won't get as smooth a surface on either piece, of course, but it works.

Otherwise, follow the previously given advice (i.e., very, very sharp blade, very fine cut, etc.). The "very fine cut" advice was what made a difference for me. If you have the joint close but are still taking full length shavings off the pieces, your cut is not fine enough. Looking for tiny, little, wispy shavings at that point.

Aaron

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Aaron Craig

Thanks everyone for your help. Wife is out of town this weekend so I'll certainly be devoting a chunck of the weekend to this project.

Filippo - The crack the light shines through changes. I would say that most of the time it's at one end or the other. I can get the middle tight and usually one of the ends, but then there is separation near the opposite end.



Aaron, that really helps. I seem to be taking off full-legnth shavings after I get close. Sadly, too much of my top is ending up on the garage floor. I'll retract the blade some once close and see if I can get it tighter.

Thanks again guys!

Just a thought? Have you checked your plane's sole for flatness?
Also having just a tiny little light at the top of the join is not so bad if you're building a flattop, as it goes under the fretboard anyway, and if you have a longish top, some will be cut off when trimming to size.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

With the flush cut router method, I use the straight edge from Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=50074. It is dead flat. Works great. I get a perfect edge every time with one pass (only done it twice though). I ultimately want to start shooting with a plane, but my money has gone to other more necessary tools than hand planes at this point. I got the 38" straight edge which I use to level my jointer and table saw.

Welcome! You're certainly in the right place for help and great advice.

Lots of great advice here - this topic's also been covered pretty recently so do a search with some obvious keywords (joining, shooting board, etc.)

What made the difference for me was

1) understanding the difference between a truly sharp plane blade, and one that I thought was sharp,,, (takes some technique to properly sharpen a blade - lots of info here on it, and it will take a bit of time, but necessary). Also, there are several equally valid approaches for sharpeining chisels and planes - you can even use successive grits of sandpaper, up to 2000, glued to a sheet of glass. I use waterstones, myself, but lots of ways to skin the cat. If you're not able to very easily shave hairs off the back of your arm, it's not sharp enough.

2) the finer the curl, the better. The previous comment about fine shavings is right on. A "curl" isn't fine enough. THe shavings need to ripple, and be translucent, superfine. Then you've got a shaving that's fiine enough. If not, back the blade off a little.

3) altering the pressure on the heel or nose of the plane as you shoot the plates is useful in compensating for a convex or concave join between the plates. And in fact, you can "spot plane" the high spots if you have some clear peaks where the plates join. As long as the cut is fine enough, that can get you closer, then one last, fine run down the length of the plates, and you should be close.

I've got to disagree on the recommendation to do one board then the next. I think one of the critical pieces to the tachnique is having both plates, bookmatched and stacked (inverted - e.g. when you open the book the sides to be joined are adjacent to each other) when you're planing. If there's any micro angle at all to the orientation of the plane blade to the plates, it will be matched on both plates, yet opposite, so the angle is complementary, resulting in a join that is totally parallel. If you do one then the other, it's too easy to screw this up. My two cents.

Have fun!

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

When I said to do one board when you are very close I meant the bottom half of the bookmatch so the angle of the plane is the same as if you were shooting both boards together. The advantage is that you are taking off half of the thickness in a pass. At less than a thousandth of an inch you won't affect the bookmatch. Yes, you shouldn't be taking off long strips. Only plane where you need to. The shavings should float if you drop them. +1 for very flat sole.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Thanks for the detailed info guys. I will let ya'll know how it turns out. Thanks for the links and I will most definitely check out the posts on sharpening my blade. Sounds like it can't hurt to start there.

John.

I've had tops I just couldn't get the joint right. Sometimes a flat surface with sandpaper is easier than a plane.
It only has to be a good joint in the body area. If I have a gap in the cut-off end area, I don't obsess about it

On my first top I had problems too, I had to grind the sole on the plane in mines an old stanley 5 1/2 then spent what felt like an age getting the back edge of the blade up near perfect, then the cutting edge and there's still some chip out from its previous incarnation so I avoid that area, after that it wasn't so much in getting the plane sharp enough though I've improved at that, but in getting the joint to candle I ended up with sandpaper taped to glass then finally took one pass with the plane, and hey presto.

I'd also recommend looking up scary sharp on youtube I have japanese waterstones yet that's still my favourite method.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Filippo hinted (maybe) and the Quine said - sanding with a straight edge. If you have a good straight-edged level or comparable, you can attach sticky sandpaper to the edge and use that to flatten the joint. This is not the best edge for gluing (although it is serviceable),
but if you get way off track with the plane, it's a decent way to bring things back to well within the ballpark.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Yes, what Filippo said, I'd only want to start from the sanded edge when you were way off course otherwise. It's an easy way to get back on track. A cleanly planed edge is best.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Well, its the end of the weekend and I am happy to report.....Top #1 - Done. I took some time and studied sharpening this weekend. After being severely frustrated for quite some time it turns out my problem (at least one) was a dull blade. Probably some inexperience as well, but a sharp edge helped compensate for the that.

I also slowed down and backed way off of my blade setting and aimed for those thin translucent shavings.

Half-way through my victory dance, I realized that now I have to figure out how to rout not one, not two, but three perfect circular channels for my sound hole rosette. Dancing ceased. Back to the books.

Thanks again guys for the tremendous amount of help. The tips were extremely helpful.

-John