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I need some help deciding on the software to get in order to do 3D design. I am a teacher so I have the following options available:

Solidworks Student Edition- $99.95 for a one year license ( but it won't import from full versions of Solidworks)

Rhino 3D- educational discount $195 (purchase price/ not a yearly license)

Inventor- free to educators-yearly renewal

I have the CNC Guitar videos that use and recommend Solidworks.
What would you recommend?

What type of class is it?

If this is an engineering class - SolidWorks or Inventor. SolidWorks is better software, but free is hard to beat...!

If it is an industrial design/graphics class - Rhino. Inventor would also work fine here as well.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I have Rhino, Solidworks, and Mastercam. Even though all three will model I find Solidworks far more intuitive than Rhino with Mastercam being ridiculous in this regard. Having acquired all of them more or less at the same time and made about the same amount of effort initially to model with each...I gravitated rather quickly to Solidworks for modeling. Mastercam is my only cam software and I use it extensively for tool path generation...but Rhino is totally neglected now. Rhino has a module available for it called "Expander" which is the only reason I still use it at all.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I've never used Solidworks so I can't really do a comparison, but I am a happy user of Rhino/MadCAM. Everyone is different in what is and what isn't intuitive, but for me the Rhino interface is very intuitive. I was an engineering major in college, and got a lot of experience in mechanical drawing in those days. The Rhino interface feels a lot like what I was doing back then. I had tried using the Google Sketchup and found it to be very frustrating. I tried BobCad and also didn't like it. But I downloaded the Rhino trial version and found that I could do pretty much anything I wanted. Adding MadCAM to the setup made a perfect (for me) match. It was one of the least expensive options out there too, and as you noted there isn't any yearly fee. When you buy it, it's yours.

Dave

If your teaching a class SolidEdge has free software for students. I've ever used it but it's a mid level CAD package similar to SolidWorks put out by the Unigrapics/NX folks. It's not as popular as SolidWorks but I'm betting it's plenty capable, and as was stated earlier, free is pretty hard to beat.
http://machinedesign.com/content/free-3d-cad-for-students-0914

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Not that this will help much but...

I downloaded the free version of Rhino for Mac and really wanted to like it as it was much cheaper than SolidWorks and was running natively on Mac. I tried for a bit and just didn't "get it" as far as how stuff worked on there. I ran the tutorials that came with it and still just did not get it. I still do not know how to dimension something oh Rhino nor would I be able to create a part with a fixture with it.

This is almost certainly a fault with me rather than Rhino as they have thousands of happy users and I've seen fantastic things drawn with it.

I had used solidworks years ago and that really made sense to me. So I dusted off an old disc from an old job and re-installed it and with help from forum members here - made a ton of progress on my parts. Solidworks is also a heck of a lot more expensive than Rhino but, $99/year is a fantastic deal, especially if you get updates. If I recall correctly, just the annual subscription for SW standard is about $1295 - that's 13 years of the student version.

From prior discussions on this board - the more artsy fartsy you are, the more likely you are to grok Rhino. The "engineer like" you are, the more you'll gravitate to SW but as we see with Dave, there are almost certainly exceptions.

If you see yourself getting into multi part assemblies and parametric modeling, you pretty much have to go with SW.

If I was you, I'd download the free version of Rhino and go through as many tutorials as you can and then start trying to draw your parts. If you think you sort of get it by the end of the trial, buy it. Even if after you buy it you have to give up on it, you've only lost $200 and perhaps you can sell that version.

I ended up buying SolidWorks.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Thanks for the replies. I guess no one likes/uses Inventor? I should have specified- I'm a teacher, but not an industrial tech. or graphics teacher. I qualify for the discounts as an educator.

I retired from Tech Ed 2 years ago. At that time our high school was using Inventor as per the requirement of Project Lead the Way. All the CAD classes were using it as far as I know. Last year the middle school started the middle school version of PLTW and started incorporating it into their program.

I only had ACAD 2D experience behind me and wanted to get into 3D, so I bought the educator version of Rhino before I retired. It is extremely powerful, as can be seen by the types of stuff you see on the net. I never hear of anybody besides schools using Inventor. I love Rhino and use it every day. There's plenty to be learned a little at a time as I'm doing. I can see Rhino being pretty complicated for kids just starting out if the teacher doesn't have a good grasp on it.

I'm a bit of a CAD junkie and currently use, and am familiar with, Alias, Inventor, Rhino, tSplines (within Rhino), Solidworks and Solidedge.

I often see a lot of comparisons and advice on this forum comparing Rhino and Solidworks. The two are in no way comparable, Rhino can create surfaces in a way Solidworks can't dream of. Solidworks is a very capable, mid level, parametric modeller with ok ( but recently improved) surfacing abilities. If you're creating mostly prismatic shapes and will likely require regular edits and variations then a parametric modeller is the way to go. If you're wanting to create more fluid and organic/dynamic shapes with no history then Rhino is a better choice. Each have their own learning curve and mindset but to critisize a piece of software you because YOU can't get to grips with it is wrong imho. There's very good reasons why nearly all ID dept's use Rhino or Alias for their initial designs

Solidworks and Inventor are so close in capabilities that it's personal preference, However give me Solidedge and its synchronous technology anyday for my Parametric modelling.

I would strongly recommend you check out the Alias/Inventor combo - it's an incredibly powerful design/engineering suite.

Siemens NX is available in an educational version and quite frankly leaves all of the above in its wake as a complete solution.

Anyway, Just my 2 cents

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www.morganguitarworks.com
www.morgancustomguitars.com

Neil, thanks for chiming in. Could you shed some light on T-splines/Rhino with respect to guitar design?

PS: I personally found Rhino hard to learn on my own but kept at it and am getting better. I'm sure training would have been a wise investment.

T Splines is an amazing program. I've downloaded the trial version and played with it--even though I don't really have an application for it in banjo building, it is a lot of fun to play with. Organic shapes are super easy to make and manipulate. I can see that if you're building solid body instruments, or even archtops, it could help you create some spectacular designs. But, it really doesn't work well with the way that I think. I think in terms of taking material away--start out with a block, end up with a neck. That kind of thing. T Splines is more like modeling clay. You start out with a geometric shape of some sort, then pull it and push it and work it around into something completely new. You can easily end up with a shape that falls far outside the original shape you start with (no big deal for machining, since you set the material size within the CAM anyway). Within the program, it's more like working with clay than working with wood. It messes with my mind, but it's still lots of fun and very powerful.

Dave

Neil pretty much has it on Rhino/Solidworks...which is why I use both in my work. A resource a lot of people don't use when it comes to Rhino is the newsgroup, which you can access from their website. The people on the newsgroup answer questions pretty much 24 hours a day and can get you through tough modelling problems. When I was starting out I posted a model I couldn't finish (of a guitar) and in a couple hours someone had replied with a completed model and step by step instructions of how they'd accomplished it. If you're getting stuck, then that's the place to go for help.

I couldn't recommend Inventor vs any of the other parametric options because Autodesk decided that they needed to 'modernize' their interface, and so they redesigned it in a way that makes it extremely arduous to use. It also means that while you can hop from Solidworks to Solidedge or Alibre or most other parametric modellers with little trouble, Inventor's interface is unlike any of them. I asked the single professional I know who uses Inventor how he deals with the interface and he said that he has hotkeys for every single function memorized- he just avoids it completely.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I just watched the presentation on synchronous technology from Siemens (used in SolidEdge and NX). It's the most exciting thing I've seen since I started in CAD. I might be hanging up Solidworks pretty soon!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I have been using Rhino. I love it. I like how there are so many different ways to get to the same place, other programs may be the same way. Their customer service is top notch, you can tell they are very proud of their product when you are working through models and emailing them questions etc... I took the class in Seattle, that was super helpful and a fun trip.

Fun fact I've just discovered: the kernel used in Solidworks and Inventor is licensed from UGS (who make Solid Edge)
So the interfaces are different, as well as high-level features, but the underlying tools are more or less the same.

(The kernel of a piece of software is the 'heart' of the software that does most of the heavy lifting and thinking, so it's sort of like how other car companies are using Volkswagen or Ford engines in their vehicles)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

This body (a PRS SCJ) was completely modeled in SolidWorks...so I'd definitley disagree that SW has limited surfacing ability (at least for luthiers).


Solidworks can do some great surfaces. The general approach that always worked best for me was to create a solid and then to cut it with surfaces.

All of this software has the potential to create great things, the only real limitations are those imposed by the part of the system that does the double clicking...

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Ummm, I didn't say limited - if you re-read my quote I said 'ok' surfacing capabilities, so it would seem we are in agreement.

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www.morganguitarworks.com
www.morgancustomguitars.com

It's even more twisted than that, I'm pretty sure that Solid Edge uses Dassaults (CATIA) kernal, which owns Solidworks. This was revealed to me by some UG employees. All of this of course came about through the buying and selling of companies, but it is a "fun fact".

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

The parasoled kernel is owned by Siemens (who bought UGS, who bought Shape Data, who developed the parasolids kernel), Dassault are looking to migrate Solidworks to the Catia CGM V6 kernel for their future cloud based solutions.

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www.morganguitarworks.com
www.morgancustomguitars.com

I received a very timely e-mail from my SW reseller a few days ago that I thought I'd share here. I do have a copy of Rhino but I'm not very familiar with it so I can't really comment on whether it's more powerful than solidworks or not when it comes to surfacing but, after watching this webinar, I'm rather blown away by what can be accomplished in SW.

http://dasisolutions.com/webinars/20100729-surfacing/

I've also attached a couple screenshots of a neck and scroll I designed in SW (it's not perfect but not bad for a first try). Even if Rhino has more powerful surfacing capabilities compared to SW, the surfacing capabilities in SW will certainly not be the limiting factor for me. I'm going to use this model for my current project but I think I can get it even better with a re-draw trying some of the techniques from the video.

I think the bigger question is how much you value parametric design & assemblies vs. free form no history.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Would that mean that linux and OS X versions of SW would be easier?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

While in essence Rhino is not parametric modelling program,
it has native history tool,
and can be made fully parametric with the use of free Grasshopper plug-inn.
Granted, that takes some deeper understanding of the program and is not
something for newbie, but is just another example how Rhino can be used in
many different ways.
I cannot use Solidworks, so I cannot compare, but can tell Rhino is really
capable program by itself and has great variety of plug-inns available for different needs.

http://dasisolutions.com/webinars/20100729-surfacing/

No comments on this video? I'm really curious to hear some folks with Rhino experience take on this. I was pretty blown away by that example with the faucet where he peeled away the side and curved it out with those tangent relationships.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Solidworks demo'd the cloud version, with Catia V6 kernel, on a Mac.

Interesting little article here - Here

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www.morganguitarworks.com
www.morgancustomguitars.com

The cloud thing is of really little interest to me but a Mac version would be outstanding.

My luke warmness to the cloud idea is probably borne of ignorance but my concerns are: having to continually pay - right now when my subscription lapses, my copy of SW will still continue to operate and my other concern is speed. My expense reporting at work is cloud based and although it's only a few seconds to re-fresh the page, it adds up to many minutes when you consider the whole report. I can't imagine how slow it would be if a whole CAD app was running offsite and only the graphics were streamed to the work station. Full screen video seems to work ok but it usually has to buffer for 10 seconds or so before the stream starts.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com