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   Hello all, I'm still hard at work on number one... I've used the magnificient Cumpiano/Nathelson book. However, is it just me, or are these back braces too thick? Every guitar I look into doesn't seem to have such beefy braces (the two lower ones on the ladder). I'm just about to close her up so I would greatly appreciate your experience here. Thanks in advance.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

IMOP the lower ladders a a bit much. More than double the upper. On a Dread I use .25" foot print on the upper and .38" on the lower. I don't think .44" would be eccessive but this seam to be aproaching .75" Th height look good on all.

Alain,

Probably should wait for Mario's thoughts on that, i just read a post talking about height rather than width but that might just be for the top, i dunno, but i think they'll probably tell you to aim in that direction .

Superb job though!

SergeSerge Poirier38720.5400115741

... Michael, good eye!!!
   You're exactly right, .75. That's what Cumpiano recommends in the book. Or did I read that wrong?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

.75. That's what Cumpiano recommends in the book. Or did I read that wrong?

No, you read it right. That's the 'old Martin' way of bracing a back, with the wide and low braces. 3/4" was right, but these are also tall, where they should be about 1/4" tall.

They look good, though; nicely done. You can leave them if you wish; these won't kill your guitar.

If you do shave them down, let us know how many semitones the change is.... seriously....

   Thanks guys for your replies and compliments.
   Mario, I think I will shave them down a bit. As it stands the back seems to ring at an E (an octave higher than the top and sides). I'll let you know how it turns out.
   Highest Regards from Ottawa...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I am just laying low... "Ignorance is bliss" who said that? If you can correctly guess the answer you will win a prize!

seriously...yes shaving the braces will change the movement of the back and it's "pitch". It will also change yet again when the back is attached to the sides. The back does move and as a result, manipulation of it's bracing has an affect on much more than just the back. How much to shave, the shape of the brace, thickness, location, type ( "x" vs. "ladder" vs. "matrix" etc.) all make a difference. Some people believe the back should be as solid as a wall, others believe that it actually works in concert with the rest of the instrument. It's realy a matter of who you talk to and on what forum. If you realy want to understand more you need to take a course like the one Ervin Somogyi teaches. The topic is too deep to explain in a thread on this or any forum. Now, I'am gonna go lay low in my pool...it's at 89deg

p.s. as to what you have in the pictures...I would shave the heck out of them...the way they are now are much too stiff...IMHO of course! Dave-SKG38720.6079282407

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

My Gand-pa use to say some thing like that... More Like " I can tell that you dont know nothing!! cause nothing gets done" Does that count

Yet ah! why should they know their fate,
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies?
Thought would destroy their paradise.
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.
Thomas Gray, "On a Distant Prospect of Eton College" 1742

... What's my prize? (Or was I just told that I'm ignorant?... hmmm)...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I wouldn't get to stressed about them on your first guitar. Your work looks clean and like Mario said It won't be a problem if you leave them as they are now. If you want to shave them down a little that could help a bit by makeing the back lighter. You can always make changes on the future guitars right?

Josh
Josh H38720.6042824074

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
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House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

[QUOTE=Alain Desforges]
... What's my prize? (Or was I just told that I'm ignorant?... hmmm)...[/QUOTE]

Alain, it wasn't meant at all like that. I wasn't calling you ignorant at all. I was actually referring to something else posted earlier by others. As for your prize...1/2 lb 192 HHG !!! email me where you would like it shipped to.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

... No problem Dave, I was just kidding... I know from my brief sojourn on this forum that discussions about 'tap tunning' and such seems to elicit rather emphatic and divided responses...
   I will shave them down to about .25 tonight. I somehow knew/felt that they were too heavy.
   I'll be posting pics tomorrow with the results.
   Regards

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Just another thought, although inexperienced. The back braces exist to support the arc in the back which, among other things, gives taht thin plate some strength. Wide and low braces over the greatest width of the lower bout may not hold the shape (arc) that you wanted. I think I would just leave tall and, as they are on already just really scallop the sides of them. So they will still have wide base (can't change that without a lot of work) but would quickly taper into the middle and would then be realtively thin and stay tall. If done right they would even look good!

Just another thought!

Shane

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Canada

My recomendationm is based on the thousands and thousands of highly sought-after vintage guitars with this brace pattern, which is the pattern Alain followed, but didn't quite get the rear ones "right". We always suggest that for a first-time effort, the person simply follow a known plan and set of specs. There are way too many variables that can affect how any one of a thousand changes will interact with the rest. But if you follow a known set of guidlines, like Alain is doing, you won't go wrong. Optimized? Of course not, but dang close.

As to if it's optimum or not, we can't tell over the internet, anyhow, but I'm sure if you pay someone $5,000, he'll tell you what you want to hear. Heck, give me $5000 and I'll help you complete this one, and build you another to take home <bg>

Did you really pay that much to learn to tune a back? Tell me you're kidding... please.

Mario38720.8606597222

   A little elbow grease goes a long way. At the centre seam, they start at 3/16? doming up to just shy of 3/8? (say,... about 5/16?). I've also kept the tapper at the extremeties.
   I feel a lot better about it now.
   As for the change in pitch? Holding the plate up to my digital tuner, it used to ring at E. It would actually have a few different tones, but the predominant one at a wider variety of areas was the E. The pitch has now been lowered by two whole tones, (4 semi-tones) down to C.
   Now, onto the next problem...
   
   

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

[QUOTE=Mario] Did you really pay that much to learn to tune a back? Tell me you're kidding... please.
[/QUOTE]
Mario,
Not just a back...but I will say that if I only learned how to tune a back and nothing else it would be money well spent. Somogyi's class is worth every penny. But it's not for everyone...you have to think that there is something to learn before you can learn. I am not one who is easily convinced that there is some voodo to be learned because I wish it to be. There were five other world class master builders ( by no means am I world class...these folks are) in the class I attended that learned as well. They all stated that with Ervin's knowledge, that he shared, was going to change the way they build. I guess we all need to go to your place Mario and learn the real secret..."How to know it all... while laying low"

p.s. of course the class itself didn't cost 5K but when add up Hotel, airfare, car rental, the class, etc. it totaled approx. 5K....worth every penny.Dave-SKG38721.8625925926

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

and learn the real secret..."How to know it all... while laying low"

But I don't know it all, and also don't pretend to, either. I come to these forums not to stroke my ego, but to learn from the others, while giving back some of what I have learned(you only keep what you give). That's why I could never charge that much if I did take students. I'm also sure that even Ervin could still learn a thing or two.

I also believe there really isn't a whole lot of voodoo in an instrument. If there was, it would be common knowledge that we needed to flock to whoever knew it in order to make guitars that sound that good. But it just 'taint so.

I will also say that in that course, if you picked up even one tip that will help you build one guitar per year more, and do it with a higher level of quality, the course is paid for rather quickly! In reality, it is a bargain. I'm positive you picked up a lot there. The way you had worded it was like you flew down for a week, and handed him 5k to show you how to tune the back. So, this is why I asked to clarify.Mario38722.5258796296