Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:37 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:47 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 908
Location: Canada
There's a report on the board on the MIMF right now of fish glue failing in high humidity, and I believe that their library will reveal more, as I recall this being brough up before.

Be careful....

Hard to beat hide glue's 5,000+ year old record...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:13 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2199
I have never had a problem with titebond for bridges and neck joints-30 years and counting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:58 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2227
Location: Canada
   I've had problems with LMI glue as well. I was simply bracing a side to the tail block and it (tail block) just let go. I didn't put much pressure on it (at least I didn't feel that I did). I'm back to my old trusted Lepage yellow glue now.... Now that stuff holds...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:39 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:45 pm
Posts: 4337
Location: United States
Larry, sorry to chime in late. I tried to read all the advice and answers, but might have missed this:
Did you clean--really clean--the bottom of the bridge before gluing? It looks like rosewood, and if so then can benefit from a wipe down with acetone.
This is just a thought--and though the growing concensus seems to be too much glue--yet this deserves a mention.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:51 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:10 am
Posts: 2020
Location: Argentina
I've read this thread and all the comments and it seems the mention of a caul is in order. Larry, you need an inside caul that perfectly matches the curvature and steps you find inside the guitar. You make it easily before attaching the top.

I even add a piece of bridgeplate material to touch the top on the opposite side of the xbrace each side. Just a passing thought as you take this myopic view of glue as the only possible problem.

Steve aptly mentions the surface of the rosewood bridge, how about the stripper material if used on the spruce? Clean, tight joints, cauls and clean materials, glue and proper clamping, these are considerations for a good joint.

If it's any comfort, my first bridge popped off. Improper clamping was the culprit, no caul. But I try not to make the same mistake twice. The definition of experience: Being able to recognize a mistake when you make it again. (But better, being able to avoid the mistake altogether.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:49 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Just to confuse things further: I've never used any sort of solvent wipedown on bridge bottoms, and never had a problem that I could attribute to contamination. I have heard that wiping down with a solvent merely spreads the stuff into a nice even film....

Working time with hide glue is less of an issue than it seems. Remember: what counts in the end is how much dried glue there is in the joint, how you get there is a variable. By choosing your path correctly you can greatly extend the working time.

My feeling is that the usual recipes for mixing hide glue are predicated on cabinet shop practice: joints that may not fit perfectly and _lots_ of clamps. Back in WW II the Forest pProducts lab decided that 125psi +/- 10% was the 'proper' pressure for clamping. Considering a normal C-clamp will give you 300# or so, that's a lot of clamps for some stuff. Let's not even get into go-bars.

I once demonstrated a 'rub joint' with hide glue for a friend of mine. I dressed off a leftover brace stick with a plane, snapped in in half, spread some hot glue on the surfaces, and rubbed them together until it grabbed. Then I set the pieces down to dry. This is a common way of joining tops and backs for fiddles; you used the gelling and shrinkage of the glue as a 'self-clamping' mechanism. About 15 minutes later I clamped one of the ends in the vice, hit the other with a hammer, and got 100% wood shear. That joint was not clamped _at all_, let alone for the 2 hours you normally would allow.

The trick is that the rubbing removed the excess glue, a job that is normally taken care of with clamping pressure. In this sense, then, you can say that the real function of clamping is not to put pressure on the joint, but simply to reduce the amount of glue in it to the proper thickness. The thicker you mix the glue, the more clamping force will be required to do the job.

Lots of pressure works out great on normal garden-variety cabinets, where the joints might not fit as well as they could: I'm not talking about the high-class stuff here. Even there, though, it's possible that you'd have to use a certain amount of clamping force just to pull things into line if they've warped or whatever.

We work to much closer tolerances, if we're doing it right. We don't have to rely on clamps to pull things into line: if they don't fit with just finger pressure they should be re-worked until they do. Thus, IMO, we can usually get by with a much thinner mix of hide glue than the label instructions say.

With a thinner mix you get the advantage of longer working time, at the cost of having to be more careful about 'starved' joints. So far the only time I've had a problem with starvation is when I warmed the joint up too much and for too long, and used a lot of clamping pressure. I was just learning then, and haven't had any trouble since.

It's easy to tell when you've exceeded the working time of the glue: it changes from honey into toothpaste. If that happens you just take everything apart right away, wash off the glue, and try again. Alternatively, you can use something like a hair dryer to warm the joint until it turns back to honey again, but there's always the chance there that the heat did not penetrate enough, so this takes some experience. Pre-warming the joint helps, but don't get it _hot_.

Pre-positioning your clamps and having everything handy _before_ you spread the glue is important, even with Titebond. I have all the cauls taped in place, clamps inside the soundhole, and paper towels and straws for cleanup handy before I open the glue bottle, at least when I'm being a good boy.

In the end, as with so much of lutherie, there's a lot of 'getting the feel' involved. I was taught to work with thin hot glue before I ever read the label recipe, and was surprised at how thick a mix that makes. With properly fitted and clean surfaces, and a little thought, you should be able to do anything with hot glue. Torres did.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:08 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:47 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: United States
First name: Larry
Last Name: Hawes
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=Jimmie D] The only time I have used LMI glue was about a year and a half ago. I glued 3 tops and 3 backs together with it. All of the joints failed. I know a lot of people use it and like it, and I may have got a bad batch, but I'm not willing to take the chance. I use HHG for everything but gluing the tops and backs on with. Titebond there.[/QUOTE]

Bad batch or not, THAT'S a bit disturbing. The reason I bought LMI's glue was to take one simple step toward a quality build, knowing I wouldn't have the time or resources to buy every tool and fixture necessary. Really hard to except that it might not do the job, granted the above case may be an exception.

No matter the outcome of this last glue joint (still clamped - 24 hrs.) I don't feel comfortable using the LMI glue. That's a shame because I have grown, in my VERY short luthiers adventure, to trust their products but simply won't use their glue again, too many good alternatives IMHO.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:11 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:47 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: United States
First name: Larry
Last Name: Hawes
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Larry, sorry to chime in late. I tried to read all the advice and answers, but might have missed this:
Did you clean--really clean--the bottom of the bridge before gluing? It looks like rosewood, and if so then can benefit from a wipe down with acetone.
This is just a thought--and though the growing concensus seems to be too much glue--yet this deserves a mention.

Steve[/QUOTE]

Steve I sanded off all the glue residue and then roughened the surface with a small saw blade. Didn't use any acetone or other cleaner. The spruce was cleaned in a similar fashion though mostly just made sure it was down to bare wood with no finish or residual glue, no cleaner there either. Time will tell on this last attempt.LarryH38726.6957986111

_________________
Thank You and Best To All


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:18 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:45 pm
Posts: 4337
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] Just to confuse things further: I've never used any sort of solvent wipedown on bridge bottoms, and never had a problem that I could attribute to contamination. I have heard that wiping down with a solvent merely spreads the stuff into a nice even film....

[/QUOTE]

Interesting, Alan. I've seen the same results, which is why I keep wiping. One doesn't have to go to the extremes of, say, Arthur Overholtzer, but several wipes and a good drying do seem to get a lot of the oils away from the surface.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:22 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:47 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: United States
First name: Larry
Last Name: Hawes
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Found this great link re: hide glue - pretty much verifies every recommendation here.

http://www.player-care.com/hide_q-a.html

Found this relevant quote.

"....sample of modified PVA glue because its bond is "elastic". That means, given a steady pressure, that joint will "creep". When a joint creeps, certain parts of the joint "stretches......."

LarryH38726.6950231481

_________________
Thank You and Best To All


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:23 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
LarryH wrote:
''Steve I sanded off all the glue residue and then roughened the surface with a small saw blade. ''

There's a problem right there: you should have left it smooth. 'Toothing' the surface actually makes the joint weaker, as the glue itself is not as strong as the cellulose it's bonding to. What's strong is the chemical bond, and for that you want smooth, freshly worked surfaces as close as possible to each other, with 'the right' amount of glue in between. One source I've seen says that the 'right' thickness for a dried glue film is .003"-.005". More or less than that is weaker.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:40 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:47 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: United States
First name: Larry
Last Name: Hawes
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] LarryH wrote:
''Steve I sanded off all the glue residue and then roughened the surface with a small saw blade. ''

There's a problem right there: you should have left it smooth. 'Toothing' the surface actually makes the joint weaker, as the glue itself is not as strong as the cellulose it's bonding to. What's strong is the chemical bond, and for that you want smooth, freshly worked surfaces as close as possible to each other, with 'the right' amount of glue in between. One source I've seen says that the 'right' thickness for a dried glue film is .003"-.005". More or less than that is weaker.[/QUOTE]

Alan, I SO appreciate the effort and information you put into your replys. I think I am in posession of a lot of myths and half truths regarding glues and their applications. I always thought toothing would allow for a larger surface area therefore more bonding area and more strength.

Now I can only hope my last attempt will hold

SIGH....I have a LOT to learn.

Thanks again

_________________
Thank You and Best To All


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:38 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada
last thing I do just before gluing on a bridge - couple passes on the bottom with a sharp scraper - best suface for gluing you will get on something curved/radiused (that cant be planed). Havent had one bridge fail. I use a chisel to pare the lac of the top - you know when you are shaving wood fibres vs finish.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:00 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:14 am
Posts: 2590
Location: United States
Wanna see an extreme example of bridge movement? Copy and paste this and have a look:

http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/research/nonlinear/tacoma/tacnarr. mpgL. Presnall38728.5624189815

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:30 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:14 am
Posts: 2590
Location: United States
To get this link to work, after you paste it, remove the space between the "dot" and the "mpg".

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:29 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:10 am
Posts: 2020
Location: Argentina
http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/research/nonlinear/tacoma/tacnarr. mpg

okay, Larry, I've never seen a bridge move like that, incredible. Hope it never happens to me.Dickey38728.60875


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:58 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
I remember watching that clip in my high school physics class. My physics professor told us that it was a rare example of torsional waves in a real world situation, and that typically they only appear in theories. I quickly mentioned bowed strings and spring reverb units.

Needless to say, he was impressed and I aced the class. He was a great woodworker as well, and later helped consult me on a few guitars I built during high school.David Collins38728.6240625

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:03 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:14 am
Posts: 2590
Location: United States
Sweet David! I once was prepositioned by an English teacher, does that count?

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com