Official Luthiers Forum!

Sar-right Bobba Louie!

Well In the past 2 days I've had TWO more glue failures with the LMI glue, that I went back and reglued with titebond yellow orignal, and they stuck.. (it is only been 2 weeks since I got the LMI glue). I'm tossing the stuff and never using it again. I just can't afford to risk it...

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I'm currently setting up to do some extensive glue joint testing, but I
expect it will be at least another 6 months before I have enough results to
consider "publishing". By the time I'm done I expect to have tested at
least 600-800 individual glue joints using at least a dozen different
adhesives for creep, rupture and sheer under heat, humidity, and cyclical
changes. There will also be some cold tests, serviceability, perhaps
impact and a few other things. I'm working my best to keep controls
stable and document the techniques, loads and measurements for
critique.

And that should give me a few finalists to start the real testing with. I'm
quite anxious to get started on my own glue / adhesive blend, but I've
decided to hold back until I get some of this testing done as a reference
point. But results are still a while away, so don't hold your breath.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Bravo, David!!! Always great to see science in action. It sure makes for better decisions. Looking forward to your results.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Bruce: I never intended to ruffle your feathers but I just wanted to state that there is a difference between the two products. I too wonderd if this could be the very same glue as LMI's white so I picked up a pint at a local Lowes (yes our store stocks it in pints and gallons). I brought it home and compared the two. I noticed a differnce so that is what I was sharing here.

The only other wood glue that I am comfortable using on guitars is Elmers wood glue. I used a LOT of titebond in cabinetry work. It will hold wood together extremely well but my main gripe is glue creep and TB has it where LMI doesn't. I bult a rather large jewelery cabinet for my wife several years ago and it is in our bedroom. Everytime I walk by it, it reminds me why I don't use TB on guitars. All of the joints show evidence of glue creep. This is not the only item I built that I see it on but it's my daily reminder.

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I'm currently setting up to do some extensive glue joint testing, but I


There are 5,000 years' worth of 'testing' that have been done for all of you already. The results are in, and they are clear.

6 months? That won't show the shortcomings of most glues. The few joints I've had fail failed after more than a year. At 6 months, even they would have "passed" all tests.

Why y'all try to nickel and dime the most structurally important aspect of lutherie, is beyond me. Completely, absolutely, 100%, beyond my comprehension.

Mario, I've studied the testing from the last 5000 years (if the University
of Michigan library doesn't have it, it probably wasn't written and I've
researched it thouroghly) and the results have not provided anything
close to clear answers.

The tests I am doing will be all identical cuts of wood from the same
board, mounted to the same test board, loaded with the same springs
(tested to make sure they are the same), run through the same oven, the
same humidity chamber, etc.

Some tests will involve raising the heat/humidity/or pressure to the point
of failure for each adhesive. Others will be to measure the amounts of
movement when all are put through the same stresses. Some tests will
involve weeks of cyclical low/high humidity shift for both parallel and
perpendicular grain orientation. Some tests will be for reversibility. It
won't take six months because that's how long I figure I oughta let it sit in
the corner and stare at it before pullin it out to check the results. It will
take six months because I don't have a laboratory full of ovens and
chambers to use simultaneously, and I have to fit this all in between my
customers and my family.

If you can provide me with a chart that shows controlled side by side test
results (unbiased manufacturer tests don't count) showing the relative
advantages and weaknesses of each adhesive for various applications, I'll
gladly stop. Unfortunately I really don't think the test results that I would
find most useful are available.

People still ask about Franklin Liquid Hide Glue. I know the stuff is crap,
but I would like to have a chart to point to that shows how and where it
underperformed or possibly (though unlikely) overperforms other
adhesives. I would like to see the same chart for Titebond original,
Titebond II & III, polyurethane glues, West System vs five minute epoxy,
LMI glue, professional PVA's like CP Adhesives, fish glue, CA's, stinky
cheap pearl hide glue, etc.

If all goes well I would like to see my results become a valuable, quick
and easy reference for people in our trade. I certainly have expectations,
one of them being that hide glue will probably be at or near the top all
the way through. What I am more interested in is the second and third
places, and how far behind they are. These tests will serve to publicly
invalidate some as much as to reinforce validation of others. I have to
admit I would like to see Knox unflavored gelatin outperform Titebond in
every test, just to help validate my spite of the stuff.

I am also very interested in working on a more user friendly glue that
stands up to all reasonable expectations as well as hide glue. If it fails at
90% of the heat or humidity or stess or hide glue I would consider it equal
if it is still 200% of what is necessary in a joint. This may already exist in
fish glue (it does outperform hide glue in a few applications I already
know of).

I have also been very intersted in combinations of proteins and collagens
with polyvinyl alcohol and polyvinyl acetate that I have been reading in my
wife's science and medical journals as of late. This is part of the
motivation for experimenting with creating an adhesive. My organic
chemistry knowledge is not so advanced, but I have my wife (who works
in biotech field) and another organic chemistry PhD as very helpful
consultants.

Hide glue was an uncertain experiment at one point. I don't expect any
concoctions I mix up to have as big of an impact as that, but I do hope
that at the very least my results will be useful reference for many.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=Re: LMI Glue, John Mayes] I'm tossing the stuff and never using it again. I just can't afford to risk it...[/QUOTE]

John, Hmmm what gives?

I seem to remember you saying last summer you would not use the LMI white glue because of "your" failures with it. You said something about not taking the chances with the glue then. So why are you using it now? In another six months we will see another Mayes/LMI glue failure report... or is this time "really it?"

What kind of failures were you talking about then? What about the failures now? Are these on guitars built earlier? But wait, you said you just got the glue ... From the sounds of it you tried to glue something 3 times and it didn't work until you used titebond. What are you gluing? How is it failing? How do you know it is failing? I don't get it ... your statements are vague yet damaging.

I firmly believe most failures with any of these glues relate to process more so than the product.

Have you contacted LMI? What have they told you? They sell a lot of this glue ...with quite a long track record of success. Maybe it would be decent to hear what LMI has to say to your high failure rate before just trashing the glue (again) on the internet.

[QUOTE=John Mayes] Well In the past 2 days I've had TWO more glue failures with the LMI glue, that I went back and reglued with titebond yellow orignal, and they stuck.. (it is only been 2 weeks since I got the LMI glue). I'm tossing the stuff and never using it again. I just can't afford to risk it...[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear that John. I hope everyone reads your post, twice.

I seem to remember Frank Ford preaching on the merits of Hide Glue many moons ago. I just never got up the nerve to try and glue up a rimset with it. I tried it on a Western Red Cedar top recently and got a wide visible glue joint.

It gelled before I could get it together I suppose, but it is holding well and the customer gave it the thumbs up. I was prepared to route it off the guitar. So, it's not like many of us have never tried the stuff Mario. We just need a little more coaxing or coaching, not sure which.

Tim,
You didn't ruffle my feathers, and I know you did a lot of hard work on glues. Did you ever publish this work? See David is doing the same thing, testing glues, and it appears he knows a bit about testing too.

I remember reading what Frank said years ago about Hide and PVA glues. It was interesting, and he found a place for both in his workshop. Oh, and epoxy, Frank loves epoxy for certain things, like making little handles on the end of those nut files. Great idea Frank, use mine all the time. I already mentioned that for dovetails and bridges I always use Hide Glue.

Everything else pretty well gets PVA, specifically Yellow Titebond. Since I got this White Titebond which generally has the same specs as yellow, I haven't been building as much. Cutting wood for resale on Ebay mostly, gotta pay the bills, and support my vice, guitarmaking.

If you can provide me with a chart that shows controlled side by side test results (unbiased manufacturer tests don't count) showing the relative advantages and weaknesses of each adhesive for various applications, I'll gladly stop. Unfortunately I really don't think the test results that I would find most useful are available

It's called the test of time. We have 5,000 year old hide glue joints, still holding. No creep. We have centuries-old instruments. Joints still sound, no creep issues.

Every Martin and Gibson before 1965 was all hide glue. Those show less deforming than '65 and later, overall. None show glue creep.

Science is cool, and well controlled tests are indeed useful, and sure enough, you may find a glue that matches hide, for the short term.
But I still won't trust it, in my lifetime. I have no reason to. I keep hearing of hide glue being hard to use, but it-just-isn't-so. I had a student spend a week here last month, and we glues everything, including the back and top to the ribs, with fresh, hot hide glue. Never did we have to wait for the glue to warm, because it is the first thing I plug in when we enter the shop in the morning. He watched me reach for the bottle all the time, and it was no different than anyone else reaching for a Titebond bottle, except my hide bottle lives in hot water when not in my hand. He watched me take the cap off and dip a brush into the bottle when I only needed a dab of glue. We used a hair dryer, which is always next to the glue pot, to gently heat any part I needed an extra minute's work time. He was already a hide glue user, but now he's a complete hide glue believer. It really isn't any more inconvenient than anything on the shelf. Yes, I still use Titebond for some less critical parts, and yes, it is nice to be able to take my sweet time with those, but if I ran out, I'd use hide there in an instant, also.

It took some pretty serious luthiers to convince me to even try hide glue. I was in the same boat as the rest of you, thinking that modern science had to have something better. But when I saw these great builders taking their own time to take me aside and slap me behind the head to steer me straight, I figured there had to be something to what they were saying. So I tried it. And now, I'm here to slap y'all behind the head to steer you all straight, also, as a form of returning the favor granted to me.

And if price is an issue, this stuff is the cheapest going!

Thanks Coach.

I started right out of the box on #1 using HHG and continue to this day. If I can use it, anyone can.

I also use the microwave for heating braces, bridges, etc. prior to applying glue. The heat gun comes in real handy when gluing tops and backs. It takes a little practice, patience and speed but it can be done.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=johno] [QUOTE=Re: LMI Glue, John Mayes] I'm tossing the stuff and never using it again. I just can't afford to risk it...[/QUOTE]

John, Hmmm what gives?

I seem to remember you saying last summer you would not use the LMI white glue because of "your" failures with it. You said something about not taking the chances with the glue then. So why are you using it now? In another six months we will see another Mayes/LMI glue failure report... or is this time "really it?"

What kind of failures were you talking about then? What about the failures now? Are these on guitars built earlier? But wait, you said you just got the glue ... From the sounds of it you tried to glue something 3 times and it didn't work until you used titebond. What are you gluing? How is it failing? How do you know it is failing? I don't get it ... your statements are vague yet damaging.

I firmly believe most failures with any of these glues relate to process more so than the product.

Have you contacted LMI? What have they told you? They sell a lot of this glue ...with quite a long track record of success. Maybe it would be decent to hear what LMI has to say to your high failure rate before just trashing the glue (again) on the internet.

[/QUOTE]

Well let me clear up it for you John.

I bought 2 bottles of LMI's white glue about ..oh a year and a half ago (I'm aproximating as I don't remember the exact date). I was jazzed to try it as all I had ever really used prior was titebond (used it on hundreds of guitars I helped build at pantheon) and never had a single problem with it, but after hearing from many people that it wa more elastic when dried (which I think it is) I was glad to get to try something which I percived might make my guitars better.

So I bought the two bottles, and went to test it right away. I assumed (yes we all know what happens when you assume) there would not be any problems so I used it on the first thing I had going at the moment. That was gluing a Ziricote back to a rim I had in construction. I did everything as normal, in my climate controled 70 degree 45% humdity shop. I bowlsanded the rim , and then cleaned up the linings up to 220 (the smoother the surface for gluing the better) and glued the back on using Tape, followed by ropes (same method I'd used on the previous 80 or so guitars I'd built). All seemed fine and well.

The next day I break out the laminate trimmer to Clean up the overhang on the body. I start routing of the top, and it goes as planned (I glued the top up with titebond), and then I flip it over and start on the back.   I get about 1/3rd of the way through it, and I hear a pop and the router felt funny. I immediatly stopped to find out what the heck was happening. I looked at the point where I had stopped routing and the back had popped loose of the rim. I flexed the back a little at the point where it had popped loose and it popped loose even more. With very little effort I popped the entire back off with the exception of the part that was glued to the heel block which was held a little more firm and took a tiny bit of heat to come off.

Befuddled at what caused this as I had never seen this in the previous 80 or so I had built nor the 300+ I'd help build at pantheon I figued it must have been something I did wrong. I did not know what, but I figured I'd just go at it again making sure that I did everything right. At this point I did not suspect the glue whatsoever.

So I went through my process again making triple sure I did everyhting correctly. Nice gluing surface with no stress. Good clamping pressure. Sufficient glue coverage. Everything seemed to be in order. I glued the back on once again.

I came back the next day and was confident that everything would be great. I took the ropes and tape off, and then proceeded to rout the rest of the overhang. About halfway through, lo and behold, it popped a second time. I went through and popped the rest of the back off just as the previous time.

This time I did suspect the glue as I remembered reading about the shelf life and smelling it and making sure it was good. So I figured I just had an old bottle by mistake. I mean everyone was raving about this glue so it had to be good right? So I tossed that bottle and turned to the second one I bought. Thinking for sure they did not mix up two bottles and send me two bad ones.

So for a third time I glued the back on using my proven method, and for a third time the next day it popped off. The last time I did everything again as I always did, but used titebond glue instead. The next day I routed the overhang, cut the binding channels flexed and tapped the heck out of it and bound it and it is in california this day making music. Everything was the same except the glue changed. One worked, one did not. What else am I supposed to infer from that experience? So yeah I shared my experience. Nothing wrong with that.

Fast forward to about three weeks ago.

There was a discussion on a forum..either here or somewhere talking about glue, and LMI's great glue ect. Got me thinking that maybe, just maybe that both bottles I got were bummers from the same batch, and that I should give it a second (or in theis case a 4th) chance. So I did. I ordered three bottles of it.

It sat in my shop for a couple weeks as I was bracing tops and backs and I use HHG for that. But yesterday I was gluing up some tops and backs, and decided to give the ol' white glue a run. I glued up a wonderful LS redwood top using the same methods I have for the past hundreds of tops I've glued up, as well as a european spruce top with the white glue. I then glued up a bearclaw sitka top with titebond, and then some backs with titebond. Same exact conditions, back to back, same methods just different glue.

Today I go in and I take the tops and I go to flex them at the joints like I always do to not only test the joint, but to get a reading on the stiffness. The first top I picked up was the redwoood top. I flexed it and POP the top spilt right down the center joint. No transfer of wood. Just a smooth clean break on the joint. I then picked up the BC sitka top (titebond glued) and flexed the heck out of it. No problems. Was really stiff and is going to make a lovely guitar I think. Then I grabbed the euro top and flexed it. POP right down the center joint. This one did transfer a tiny bit of wood, but only about 2 inches worth along the 22+ inch seam.

Again. From this, and taking into consideration my past experiance with the glue what else can I come to surmise? My methods are proven to work not only by my hand, but by the ones who have taught me and they have been involved in building thousands of guitars. The methods are good. No doubt I could have screwed up, but it would be a very dubious coincedence that the only joints I've ever had fail me are the ones with LMI's white glue, not the titebond I've used lots, not the hide glue I've rencently been using LOTS, but the white glue. The only backs I've ever had pop off were with LMI's white glue. It could be sheer coincidence, it could, but it would be a really low chance of that.

So I come here and I share my experience, and you act as though I'm trying to pull one over on someone, or be misleading. Why would I do that? I think LMI is an incredible companany with wonderful products and excellent customer service. I've spent thousands of dollars with them and I will continue to in the future. I will however not be buying anymore of the white glue.

I know there are MANY more people who have had sucess with the glue as opposed to my few faliures. And again I still leave the possibility that I could have screwed up and caused the faliures by my hand, but I'm VERY skeptical that that is the cause as experience shows me otherwise.

Also to LMI's credit I contaced Chris and told him of my problems with the glue and he gladly offered to refund my money on it. in fact here is his response:

Weird! I am happy to takes this back, but honestly, I am dumbfounded as to why this is happening to you! I am not exaggerating when I say that we sell dozens and dozens of these bottles every week -to high-end pros
and beginners alike. Other than a post on some forum (from a guy who never bothered to call me) and yourself, I have never had a complaint on it. We glue up tops and backs, numerous species, all day in many different temperatures and we never, ever have a problem. The only thing that can degrade the glue is age and freezing the glue. We routinely rotate our stock and because we sell so much, there is never any on the shelf for long. If it has spoiled, you can tell by smelling it.


So there it is. My Story and experience with LMI's glue. Unless it is proven to me in my situation that the glue is good then I will not ever use it again. I'm not telling anyone not to buy it, but I thught that this is what the point of the whole board and community was for. To share both the good and bad things. If I'm off base here John forgive me, and if it's just that you have a problem with me or something call me anytime at 405-579-9629 and we'll hash it out.John Mayes38731.0836805556

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Mario, The problem that I have with the argument of old instruments and
furniture still holding is that in large they didn't hold. The permanent glue
joint is a myth and all glue joints will fail with time. The reason that they
are still around is because joints made with hide glue are reversible and
servicable. I'm sure there may be examples of 300 year old original hide
glue joints still holding, but they would almost certainly be brittle and fail
under stress. Hide glue does crystallize and become brittle over time.

In terms of permanance and strength, adhesives like resorcinal and urea
formaldehyde beat hide in just about every aspect. The problem with
these is they are not reversible or easily servicable, and that is thier
Achilles heel. All glue joints on an heirloom quality piece should be
designed with future repair in mind, because at some point they will need
it.

I share my shop with a man who has been building, restoring and
studying 15th - 18th century harpsichords since the late '60's, and a well
respected baroque period bow maker and restoration expert just upstairs.
I certainly get my share of input from these as well as other experts more
seasoned than myself, and they have certainly contributed to my desire to
pursue this project.

I'll make one more comment and then quit hijacking this thread (sorry
folks, but I get a little passionate about some things). The idea of science
so often has the connotation of new technologies attempting to replace
tradition. My view of science is this context is as a time proven method of
gaining a deeper understanding of traditional materials, and using that
knowledge to attempt improvements to thier application, and perhaps
even thier formulation. Glues and adhesives are a fascinating science.
They are collagens and proteins, homopolymers and copolymers, cross-
linked and catalized, and lots of other science. Understanding how they
work can aid in decisions when faced with things like resinous woods or
old weathered cracks.

Innovation is an important tradition, plus I'm just terribly curious. I've
used hide glue for many things for many years, and I probably always will,
but I can't not experiment. Similar eneavors in the past have brought me
back full circle to the original method or item I was trying to improve on.
But in every case I have come out with a deeper understanding than I ever
could have gained otherwise. There is a good chance that when I'm done
my results will provide you with a head-whacking stick, only it will come
in the convenient form of a hyperlink. <g> If that is the outcome it
wouldn't surprise me too much and that would be fine with me.
Knowledge gained, and all that stuff.



And just so that I can contribute something to the actual thread topic
here, if you insist on using PVA someone should try the CP-200 from CP
Adhesives. They have at least 7 or 8 specialty types of professional/
industrial PVA's but the CP-200 seems the most popular. I'm not sure
what their minimum order is, as they seem to cater to a more industrial
market, but I know it is available in gallons. I plan on tracking some down
and including it in my tests.David Collins38731.1093634259

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

The permanent glue joint is a myth and all glue joints will fail with time. The reason that they are still around is because joints made with hide glue are reversible and
servicable.

The 5,000 year old joints I speak of were found in items in Egyptian tombs. Not a myth, and I doubt anyone went in there to service them <bg>

Martin has been building guitars since 1833. Unlike old violins, guitars don't get taken apart too often, and many of these guitars remain, intact. The vast majority of the last 100 year's worth of guitars also remain intact, short of a neck reset, with little joint service required.

Titebond original has a 40 year history of pretty solid performance, also. Why risk it all(and when you try building with unknown glues, you do in fact risk it all) for some other glue? You have two proven choices to choose from. Not enough? The glue industry won't build a specialty glue for instruments; we are a tiny end-user. You can be sure that any new glue coming out is meant for other uses.

I had a small handful of my early guitars fall apart because of glue failure. All consecutive serial numbers. Some had bridges pop loose, other had center seems open up, brace pop, etc... The glue I used was recommended to me directly by arguably Canada's biggest high-end builder. I asked him what he used and he held up the bottle. I headed to the hardware store and proudly bought my own. Mistake. I pity all the folks who pay the 5 figures his instruments command...

We have enough unknowns in lutherie. Glue shouldn't be one of them.

Okay, just one more thing. The talk of this LMI glue (which I still haven't
tried) has me terribly curious. They list this as a proprietary PVA made
specifically for lutherie, yes? What gets me is that there is no PVA
adhesive I have ever known that will exhibit the odors they describe when
it is fresh vs spoiled. It really has me wondering if they tried something
similar to what I wanted to do (find a good combination of animal gelatins
and PVA). If that's the case I'm a little less optomistic about my innovative
ideas.

The odors they describe agree quite well with how I describe the fish glue
I use. The item number ("FG" at LMI, and "FG-05" or "FG-03" from
Norland fish gelatins, depending on the size) raised my eyebrows as well.
The only glitch is that this high tack fish glue has a much darker color.
There is a pure clear fish collagen they sell that would fit in.

I don't know. It's all pure speculation, but it's just that smell that gets me.
I suppose I should get a whiff before spreading rumors.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Mario, you know pyramids and mummies don't count - there's some
supernatural voodoo there that changes everything .

Mario, if you ever get down to Ann Arbor I'll set up a special tour of the
Stearns collection for you. It is certainly an incredible collection, but was
poorly managed for a number of years and provides a few thousand good
examples toward my argument.

And it really shares some common features with the pyramids. Well, I've
heard it compared to an instrument mausoleum anyway.<bg>David Collins38731.1096180556

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=David Collins] Okay, just one more thing. The talk of this LMI glue (which I still haven't
tried) has me terribly curious. They list this as a proprietary PVA made
specifically for lutherie, yes? What gets me is that there is no PVA
adhesive I have ever known that will exhibit the odors they describe when
it is fresh vs spoiled. It really has me wondering if they tried something
similar to what I wanted to do (find a good combination of animal gelatins
and PVA). If that's the case I'm a little less optomistic about my innovative
ideas.[/quote]

Umm, titebond goes thicker and starts smelling more 'sour' ever so slightly as it ages/gets to the point where I won't use it for guitarbuilding any more. Am I the only one who's noticed this?

I know that it gets thicker, but I never really noticed any sour odor.
Perhaps this is just me.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=John Mayes]
So there it is. My Story and experience with LMI's glue. Unless it is proven to me in my situation that the glue is good then I will not ever use it again. I'm not telling anyone not to buy it, but I thught that this is what the point of the whole board and community was for. To share both the good and bad things. If I'm off base here John forgive me, [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the more concise report ... that allows us to draw some of our own conclusions. Yes I think the forum should be about sharing good and bad, so no I don't think you are "off base" but let us be careful. Your updated report has much more credibility and you also show that LMI has responded.

I was talking with someone this morning and his only glue joint faliure to date was with HHG. He re-planed the seam and used LMI white and it held perfectly.(interesting)

As a beginner, i used yellow woodworker's glue for my first build and everything still holds after a month of being strung up. That kind of glue was convenient for learning how to glue for a beginner like me. Since i'm gonna try to stay in lutherie for a long time(i hope), i will sure want to try HHG although scaring at first. I'm divin' in, would not want Mario to slap me behind the head! The HHG i bought was from Lee Valley, does anyone know if their HHG is good ?

Explain one thing: The bear is goin' acoustics ? What is that? Did you get your package?

Serge, I seem to remember Mario once saying use the Lee Valley granular hide glue, not the pearl as it is not strong enough or some other reason. I hope he'll chim in here about it.

Bruce, Nice quote, I'd like to see that some time

_________________
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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Yeah, the LV granular is fine, but avoid the other like the plague...