Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello Folks,
I have been occasionally browsing this forum for about a year now. It
seems like a great place with a lot of knowledgeable and helpful
individuals.

I thought I would introduce myself. I graduated from college with a BS in
Biochemistry about three years ago. I've been working in the chemistry
lab at Hawaiian Tropic (the sunscreen maker) for about two and a half
years. I originally had intended to work only for a few months to save up
money for grad school - I was going to go to Wisconsin or MIT as they
both have great biochem programs up there - but then I
started building guitars.

I've progressed very quickly - which isn't that much of a compliment if
you consider my very first guitar.

No woodworking experience + no tools + personality that doesn't ask for
directions = guitar better suited as an ugly workshop clock.

However, I really have found what I love to do and am going to try and
see if I can't do it for a living. I don't care about making a lot of money so
I figure its the perfect profession for me.   I will be working part-time for
the next year or so building lots of guitars and refining my design and
process. I own a handmade Mcilroy (cedar/mahogany) which is what
really started me on this adventure - I just couldn't believe that it was
that much better sounding than my old Taylor. My last guitar was almost
equal in build quality (a couple very minor flaws) and every bit equal in
sound. Here is a link to my last guitar if anyone is interested.

German
Spruce/Palo Escrito/Bocote Binding/Olivewood Rosette

However, what I would like to get ya'll's opinion on is the following:

I have a family member who is very likely going to be setting up a CNC
router as the foundation for a personal business. They would probably
start out with a small one ($30k to $60k) and upgrade when necessary -
although that should keep them going for a while. I've got an incredibly
talented machinist friend at work who be able to handle milling of metals
and such. There are a ton of custom motorcycle shops down here in
Florida that would probably keep the machine very busy. But I was
thinking...are there enough people (pro-luthiers and amateurs) who
would be interested in having necks milled for them on this thing. I was
also thinking that they could create custom jigs for luthiers, templates,
etc...

I personally like doing a lot of things by hand - one being the neck.
However, if I get to do lutherie full-time - I know carving out 15 - 25
necks a year would get very old after a few years - it is also hard on the
shoulders. Since this is a luthier community - I was just wondering what
kind of market/need could be helped by such a machine. The ideas are
endless with these things. Also, what kind of pricing would ya'll consider
reasonable - for templates, jigs, custom neck milling, etc...

Thanks for reading and please let me know what you all think.

God blessSimonF38731.1065625

Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem.
-Thomas Szasz

Amen.

Now to the CNC question. I think lots of folks would love to buy necks wholesale off a CNC. Of course mine would have to be dovetailed, while most others would require mortise and tenon.

The majority would also want 14 fret necks, but a few would want 12 fretters. Some would want classical necks.

Also, the best neck going in my opinion is a multilaminated mahogany with lines of rosewood and maple, no stacking horizontally. Others would want a solid wood neck, still others to pinch a penny would want stacked necks.

Necks are available now for about a hundred bucks, blanks cost close to half that. Is there any room to really make any money?

Welcome to the OLF, others will be along shortly, but CNC definitely has a place in the guitarmaking world. They just don't fit in most small shop's budgets.



Nice guitar by the way, really interesting. Now I know what to do with my left over Bocote.....Dickey38731.4320486111

Nice guitar, I really like the rosette and bridge. I assume it is a steel string, but it has the overall look of a classical to me.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[quote]Necks are available now for about a hundred bucks, blanks cost
close to half that. Is there any room to really make any money?[/QUOTE]

Good question - that's what I'm trying to figure out for my family
member.

I do think there is quite a bit of difference between the service they would
be providing and just buying a martin-style neck from LMI for $120
(about $80 for labor if you subtract the cost of the wood). First of all,
your neck shape and profile could be perfectly duplicated and you still
wouldn't have to carve the headstock. If one of your customers like the
profile of a Taylor - no problem, easily done. I personally don't like the
looks of an Olsonesque laminate neck but prefer the look of a lowden
much more. If it is profitable enough for them, they could offer a truly
custom service to luthiers.

In reality, I'm think this is a service full-time guys would really want to
take advantage of. Your profile, headstock, heelblock could be perfectly
replicated. I'm also thinking it might be easier to just build the whole
neck- fretboard and everything and let the luthier just do the fretting and
neck attachment. I thought they could have high quality mahogany,
maple, rosewood, and ebony available for neck stock. The customer
could send in their headstock veneer and the fretboard if its something
exotic. Or you could send them your own blanks.

Personally, I think for a service like that $200 in labor is extremely fair
and reasonable. Basically for $5000 (25 necks), all your yearly neck work
(except just a little) would be done for you. That is close to about selling
2 to 3 guitars profit for what most folks charge. If all those necks were
done for you, could you build 3 more guitars than you normally do.

Just thinking out loud. Like I said, I have no idea as to whether there is a
"market" here. But I think when you put the figures down on paper - it
would certainly be a financial benefit to a lot of people. Also the
possibility of making some really awesome custom jigs is there as well.


I really would like to continue hearing you thoughts and opinions.

Also, thanks for the nice comments about my guitar.

Peace Out

just FYI if your up tom compete in this market of CNC your prices would have to be MUCH lower. There are guys in the industry who supply necks to many well known makers who will mill a neck to spec for $75 per neck materials included, after a $1200-$2000 set up charge for the first time. So after the one time set-up charge guys can get 25 necks for $1875 give or take....

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

A bunch of us went together and are building a guitar for the forum moderator. While someone was willing to donate a CNC neck, it became the consensus that a handmade guitar by friends, should also have a handmade neck.

I think to, you might encounter resistance by full time luthiers to using CNC necks. At some points of construction, when getting started though, concessions might be made.

My first guitar was a kit and had a cnc neck, and it turned out much to my satisfaction. But since then I've built many necks from scratch and as someone else on the forum pointed out recently, it is a satisfying part of guitarmaking. I know I love it and wouldn't give it up for that reason.

Good luck in what you are looking into, lots of people would be thrilled at having custom necks made up to their specs. Absolutely no different than sending a guitar out to have it professionally finished, none at all.

That's a very nice guitar, elegant lines and original design. Do you have
sound samples you'd like to share?

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

What John (Mayes) is saying makes perfect sense for someone who produces a substantial amount of guitars per year, every year...but for a hobbiest producing a few guitars every few years, the $200 per neck might be the perfect way to get their ideal neck replicated while avoiding the one-time setup fee of $1200 - $2000 bucks - that's assuming that your higher cost per neck didn't require an unreasonable setup charge. Sounds to me like the setup fee might be your ticket to entering the market.

Regardless, I think it's a good idea to research and your enthusiasm certainly comes through.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

acutally a $1200-$2000 setup charge is really resonable... I've gotten quotes from guys for over $2500 just to program the neck in CAD. That is the thing. It takes lots of experience to do that kind of programming. Lot of work.

If someone is just doing it as a hobby I think they should just carve em by hand. It is a gratifying experience.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

[QUOTE=John Mayes] If someone is just doing it as a hobby I think they should just carve em by hand. It is a gratifying experience.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Also, the material for necks is not very expensive. I can buy honduran mahog from a local hardwood dealer for $30 per board foot. And I can get maple and rosewood for the veneers for a good price as well. In total, I can make two neck blanks for about $80 canadian and I love to cut, shape and carve the neck, it is one of the most enjoyable parts of the job. If I was doing 30-40 guitars a year, that may be a different story, but I don't see that in the near future at all.

As far as the jigs go, I also love to build the jigs. There are several places already to purchase jigs and molds/forms from so the competition would be there, so your prices and service has to be comparable.

Sorry Simon, we all sound so discouraging. Don't give up I'm sure there are those out there who would use the service. One thing that may deter people is if the machine is being used to cut both metal and wood the posiblilty of the wood being contaminated with cutting fluid is very probable. NOT GOOD.

Nice guitar by the way, nice inside lable, I like it.Rod True38731.6689814815

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

$30 per board foot... that sounds pretty steep to me. Even in Canadian Dollars. My local place is selling it for $10.17 for 8/4 wood. My problem is finding perfectly flat sawn boards. It takes an eternity to sift through them.... Not something easy to accomplish on your lunch hour....

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=laurent] That's a very nice guitar, elegant lines and original
design. Do you have sound samples you'd like to share?[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Not entirely original in body shape - Lowdenesque influence. No
sound samples at the moment.

I really appreciate all the responses. As I was saying, I was just trying to
do a little market research and thought this would be the perfect place to
do that - and I think it has been.

Contamination of the metalworking to the woodworking is not an issue,
unless one is just careless.

Mayes, they actually have several interesting tools that will allow you to
input something into CAD in just a few minutes if you have a prototype
available. That way the initial cost to setup a program for the job is not
as costly.


I know how some of you feel regarding keeping the guitar handmade. I
think part of the allure of the hand-built guitar is that a lot of the work is
done using handtools. And there is a wide-spectrum as to what some
consider handbuilt - I've heard some heated debates on both sides. My
personal opinion, is that the only true dichotomy is that of the actual
luthier and factory - not in how a luthier or factory gets the work done.

I still haven't ruled this out as a possiblity - even though intially it
appears there isn't much of a desire for this kind of service. The reason
I'm doing this now is that it might affect their machine purchase - which
model, spindle capabilities, etc.. Metalworking doesn't require as fast
RPM's.

Is there anyone else out there with a CNC that truly caters to the lutherie
community? Someone who could make available jigs and templates that
would be truly difficult to build with normal shop tools. Stuff like molds
and such I'd imagine would be substantially cheaper than the competition
- but I'm not really interested in taking the market from places like
GuitarJigs and others. I would like to help the lutherie community not
harm it.

I would also like to mention Gilmer Wood. You see stuff that those guys
get which few others ever have. I've bought several grand of wood from
them over the last couple years and have been very impressed. Awesome
source for binding.


Once again, thanks for all the input.
God blessSimonF38731.7032060185

[/QUOTE]
I'm also thinking it might be easier to just build the whole
neck- fretboard and everything and let the luthier just do the fretting and
neck attachment.[/QUOTE]

Kinda undermines the "hand-made" mindset, doesn't it? Why would you need a luthier to attach the neck?

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
$30 per board foot... that sounds pretty steep to me. Even in Canadian Dollars. My local place is selling it for $10.17 for 8/4 wood. My problem is finding perfectly flat sawn boards. It takes an eternity to sift through them.... Not something easy to accomplish on your lunch hour....

[/QUOTE]

I know it's expensive, but it is the only local place for mahog in my town. I can drive an hour into Vancouver and get it cheeper, but than I have to drive back that same hour and my time is worth more to me than the difference in cost. Even still at $30/bf, making necks is very resonable I think. I should just make the trip out to Vancouver one day and stock up for 20 pieces or so.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I like CNC on Factory Instruments, like my Taylors and Martins I've owned. One Seagull, countless cheapies with names unknown. Also, Kitbuilding, having a cnc neck to stick on there is great.

Simon doesn't like the kind of neck I make, Olsonish. Everyone has their preferences. After seeing the stacked heel pull off that guitar on the OLF, I'm glad to be laminating vertically, rather than horizontally.

Like my momma said, "There's a place for everthing." I just couldn't always find that place. CNC necks and other parts are here to stay, maybe just not on a handmade guitar.

This kind of reminds me of a conversation with Frank Ford a few years back. We were talking about tuners and handmade guitars. I had just purchased $500 worth of Grover machines, based on the fact I'd used them on my Taylors and loved them.

Frank told me basically that folks expect to be treated to the best when it comes to hardware. Waverlys in particular. Heck they are laying down thousands for one of our guitars. Made sense then and still does.

Wholesale Grovers to anyone!Dickey38732.3711689815

[QUOTE=old man]Kinda undermines the "hand-made" mindset, doesn't
it? Why would you need a luthier to attach the neck?[/QUOTE]
I was just thinking out loud, friend. However, I don't think it undermines
"hand-made" anymore than a luthier using templates on a router table.
Or using a router to cut the slot for a truss-rod.

My idea was to see if there was a need that this CNC could fill in the
lutherie community. There seems to be a little resistance to the idea of a
machine carving out the neck. I certainly do understand this and feel
similar to some extent. However, I was thinking if I was doing over 20
necks a year that it would get old fast.

At this point, I will relay to my family member what my initial impressions
are. Maybe down the road, if I come up with some good ideas that might
be valuable to the luthier - I'll mention them over here.

Once again, thanks for the comments and opinions.

God bless,
Simon

I think the "hand made vs. CNC" debate will go on forever. Most "hobby" level builders shape the neck and other parts by hand for the pure love of it. If your living depends on production perhaps final shaping of a CNC part is sufficient for the "satisfaction". There's pleny of opportunity to get that "hands on" feeling working with a roughed out CNC part, maybe just not enough. Hard to argue with the debate of a CNC neck being different than a sheet of MOP vs. peeling one's own shell, or buying a roll of fret wire vs. forging and extruding one's own wire and so forth. YMMV. Here's an interesting and informative CNC discussion:
CNC discussion

Simon, don't get discouraged. Just take what has been presented here and digest it a little.

As LArry says, the arguments will go on forever, but it really isn't about a handmade VS CNC thing that you are up against, as much as looking at the wrong end of the market.

Hobbiests do it for the enjoyment of woodworking, not the assembly of parts. therefor, the journey is the most important aspect. For them, a pre-made neck doesn't make sense, as it takes away the fun. The hobby buiolder also takes deep pride in being able to say 'I did it all, from raw material', instead of "I assembled it all from pre-made parts"

So in that light, targetting the hobby builder will elad you nowhere.

Now, the pro builder may indeed, at some point, -need- to go to CNC assistance in order to keep costs in check, and prfits real. Since time is what costs the most, a CNC saves time. So, targetting the pro does indeed make sense. Taking an add out in the lutherie journals and associations is where you would want to be. But there's also a catch to this; the pro will also shop for the best price, adn as John said, there are others doing it for much, much less than you anticipate. Less than what John mentioned, even. Much less. So, here, you'll have a chance at a market, but that market is tight.

Oh, and programming for a neck is much, much more involved than you are anticipating, also. It is one of the toughest 3D objects to reproduce. Few things match it for complexity.

Where I could see an immediate market for CNC is making templates, custom templates. Visit any guitar factory that uses CNC, and you'll not see the CNC making parts as much as you'll see CNC making jigs and templates to help make the parts using more tradtional woodworking equipment. Even Taylor stopped using their CNC for necks, having found other methods(that huge shaper/turntable thing is awesome <g>).

Cool thread.


Thanks Larry.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Would I be interested in CNC necks? sure, if they were under$80. I suspect that there is a market but more as a side market and not something you'd make a lot of money at.

Simon, I have been buying some CNC necks so there is some interest even from the hobbiest. However, with a limited market and existing competition, I'm not sure you could develop a successful business model from necks alone. FYI, I have been paying $90 for a choice of mahogany, cherry or walnut bolt on neck (attachments included). These are not custom but do come with a somewhat oversize headstock to allow some customization for your own design. However, if I was ordering in large quantities I would expect a lower cost. Hope you get things sorted out.    

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Who from, Don? One piece necks? Scale length?

Simon- What part of the world (city & state) will this CNC reside in?

FYI National Resophonic in San Luis Obispo will take on outside work for
their CNC routers. They really know how to make necks there.

-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Mario, there is a fellow on eBay who sells them through his eBay store. USD$90 per plus another $18 for his matching truss rod.

Ummm, two piece necks, fuzzy photos, $15 shipping???.... Looks like the typical e-bay store.

And he's offering a $6 truss rod for $18?

Glad I was just curious... <bg>