Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Guys

A couple of you have asked to see pics of my adaptation of the Williams/White Binding Jig.

The same as Daves this is intended for when you want to use a Trimmer with a bearing.

Most of the Detail is the same except the Router Carraige, Daves swivels at the bottom, mine at the top.




The next one shows the top bearing which is two pieces of PTFE.

Russell,

very clever - love it!!

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Great work Russell, I've just got to get round to building one of these. Now if Dave sends me his variant and you send me yours I can do a comparison test. I'll have to adapt them to my DeWalt trimmer though, so I won't be able to return them. That OK?

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Russel, love your variation to the Fleischman/Williams/White/Rose binding jig The evolution of this tool has been a huge help for those of us with a bearing guide on their trimmer who do not wish to purchase a guide bearing set to do this job.

Both you and Dave White have been a big help to the rest of us interested in going this way and once again we have an example of the great benefits of the OLF to all whom have an interest in this craft..........We can communicate and conquer

Cheers All

Kim

Your Welcome Kim, I am glad it was useful.

THe other advantage of a side bearing Guide is You can use a Downcut Spiral if you wish, Colin S told me to try one for binding and purfling channels, they make a really clean cut, and minimise the possibility of any tearout.

WoW Russell, That is awesome Resourcefulness if that word exists?

Thanks for sharing this beautiful concept! I will have to think how mine will work since i have bought a flush cutting bit with the bunch of bearings from Stew-Mac, your pictures sure will help on making the adjustments required for my jig.

Regards, Serge

    I must pass on some info about that adaptation so if I seem like the devils advocate I am not . I just want to pass on some things I have learned through failures. You will learn more from a failure than a success so I hope you don't take this as a personal attack. As a machinist I build jigs and repaired tooling for aliving.
     If you use a pilioted bearing set the roation of the router isn't needed. In fact the pilot fixture is not very accurate as you have to be perfectly square to the bearing for the depth of cut to be what you want.
   There is another weak link here that scares me , and that is the way the router is mounted. All the force is on the edge of the verticle plate. That is a weak link and when it fails you won't have time to protect the instrument. The safety factor here needs to be addressed. The load should be looked at so you mount this so you have good support .
     I used that method a few times and gave up as the set up time and results were poor at best. I think most of us will agree that once we finally broke down and purchased the pilot bearing set we wondered why we waited so long in the first place.
    I think the Stew mac PN 1298 is one of the best sets on the market for this operation.
John Hall
   Learn from others mistakes , you can't make them all yourself

Hi John

I certainly don't take it personally, glad for your input you have far greater experience than I on these matters.

Sorry to be a bit dumb here but what do you mean by all of the load is on the edge of the vertical plate ?

Do you mean all of the weight is taken by the back edge of the part the router mounts too ?

If it is this my thought was that when in the cutting position the load is shared by the bearing surface resting on top of the guitar.

Thinking about it a bit more I could add some diagonal straps accross the corners and under the plate ?

For me using the guide bearing is not a point of economy but one of versatility, I like being able to use the down cut spiral bit, I'm not keen on the straight cutter method the pilotted bearings use.

     I stopped using downward spirals as soon as I started. As a machinist , we use them for one thin only , and that is a clear cut on edge. Your chip will be forced to the bottom of the cutter and this fowls the clearance.
      If you like them keep using them but you will run into this problem sooner or later. Most problems are people using the wrong grind on the cutters. High speed cutters use different grinds and angles.
     Your idea of a diaganal brace is a start. I would rabit the cut then diaganal the brace. your support and stability will increase.
    No matter what bit you use if you want to reduce the tear out factor you must cut from high to low so start on the outer edge of the bout and work down into the wood about an inch , then you can joint all them with one cut.
     Good luck and have fun building , that is what a hobby is to be about.
John Hall

John,

Thank's for sharing the benefit of your wisdom and experience - that's what makes this forum so fantastic.

A couple of questions though. If the sides aren't perpendicular then the pilot bearing won't compensate and make the cut the right depth and width - both this and a router follower will give the same imperfect cut won't they?

The mounting of the router and it's bearing point (at least in my adaptation) is the same as on the Fleischman/Williams jig - I just added a Lazy Susan bearing. Do your failsafe concerns also apply to the original design?

You can just use pilot beaings but there were 2 reasons I did my adaption. I have large domes in my tops and backs (around 14-15' each) and have designs with pretty narrow waists and tight curves. In order to get uniform depth and width of cut of the binding channels around the waist and upper bouts you need the "donut" guide to be as small as posible and as close to the guitar edge as possible. The pilot bearing has to keep the same relative angle as you go round these curves and it would be almost impossible (I think, but I could be wrong) to keep a small "donut" on the surface edge. As you go round the waist curves the wider donut will index off a point too high on the top usually meaning the cut there is not deep enough and too shallow. Being able to swivel the router around these curves means that you can follow the top edge almost exactly with a very small bearing "donut".

The second reason is I like the freedom of being able to use just one router bit and set depth and width of cut using the Laminate trimmer adjustments. This gives me pretty infinite freedom in the binding and purfling designs I can do without having to have a set of pilot bearings.Dave White38733.2030208333

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I stopped using the piloted bits about 15 guitars ago as I was never happy with the quality of the cut they produced (SM set) I switched to a downcut spiral bit and a bearing guided laminate trimmer and much prefer the finish, and like Dave, the versitility it gives me. You'd have to hold a very big gun to my head to get me to go back to the piloted bit. I use a 6.35mm DCSB so clearing the waste from the bottom is not a problem with a 2mm cut.

Still can't beat the purfling cutter and chisel though.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Although I use a different style jig, I also prefer a down cut spiral bit for this. I use the 1/4" carbide one that LMI sells. I get a cleaner cut with this bit than with my "Binding Router Bit Set" from Stewmac.

Colin, you are probably right about the purfling cutter and chisel, but then what are we going to do with our fancy jigs?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

The jigs are still the best way to go . Tom Ribekke's design or the williams. As for the sides , as long as you are close you will do fine. A few degrees isn't that big a deal.
    Glad I can help but allways rememeber the advice here is worth what you pay for it. Have fun and share , "information not shared are secrets"
Never knew one to be kept anyway ( John Wayne )
john hall

Hey guys what would you suggest i'd do if i have a Porter Cable laminate trimmer and the Stew Mac bit & bearings set ?

Serge the beginner bear!

My recomendation would be the Williams Jig as Standard, if you are using the piloted bits you don't need the ability to swivel the router.

Thanks Russell!

    I am more in the Tom Ribekke school There are alot of moving parts on the williams jig and only 1 on the ribekke's.
    Both are good machines but I am a beliver in simplicity. Less parts means less to go wrong
john hall

To me the big diff is one you move the router and arm to travel around the box, the other you move the box to travel around the bit. Like John said they are both good fixtures. I am a bit short on storage space in my shop, so I am like John I like the Ribekke design best, but souly for based on the storage issue.

Thanks John and Michael, after reading this, i must admit that i'm one of those who loves to complicate things when they should be easy. I too will switch to the ribecke for simplicity, lack of space and as John says, less parts = less to go wrong!

Regards

Serge