Official Luthiers Forum!

Most of us are using mortise and tenon bolt on neck joints and I assume most of use use threaded insets and the others use barrel nuts.

My question is for those that use thr'd inserts. Does everyone drill out the tenon and insert a hard wood dowel plug then drill out the plug for the insert? What wood is everyone using for the dowel.

If not, what is you proceedure?

Drill the tennon and insert the threaded insert into the tennon. Unless, your tennon has a hole pre-drilled in it then you can plug it with any DRY hardwood dowell and re-drill.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Hey Michael--
I hope I'm understanding your question, but whatever, here goes my answer:
I drill straight down, all the way through the (vertical) length of the heel. Then, I install a 1/2" Honduras Mahogany dowel. Seems appropriate for this application. The dowel is what ends up being "tapped" by the inserts. The only place I've seen these dowels for sale is Woodworker's Supply of (fill in a state here, like New Mexico, etc.)

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve this what I have been doing. the reason I asked I talked to someone the other day and for the life in me I can't remember Who but they said that they did not add the dowel just predrilled for the insert and taped the insert into the tenon.

That's all I did when I used the threaded inserts. Drill a hole and screwed it in. Never had one come out. Sometimes I would shoot a little CA in the hole first if I felt nervous but not usually. I have since switched to barrel nuts.

I have used and am considering using again, a butt joint in which case I'll probably go back to threaded inserts.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Hi Michael, with your permission while you guys are on the threaded rods and inserts topic, i have a small question if i may? In the photo below, there are rods and inserts i got out of something, 8 of them rods 2" long and the inserts are 3/16" if my memory serves me well and thought i would have enough for 4 guitars. Are these good for guitar buiding or should i buy something else? TIA,Sorry if disturbing!

Serge
Here it is

I locate and drill for the inserts. Then I put "seal" the hole with some thin CA. After that dries I clamp a block on each side of the tenon and screw the insert right in to the tenon (no plug). The blocks clamped on the tenon help prevent splitting.

After it is in there, I put a few drops of CA around the outside edge of the threaded insert.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Serge--looks like a barrel bolt to me. Should work.

Michael and John, currently I am using a simple butt joint on the heel. Threaded inserts straight in, just like Taylor's first incarnation.

I started using the dowel rod when the center lamination of the neck was hard--real hard--and I feared cracking the heel. The dowel rod adds a comfort factor to a rock maple neck, or a neck w/ a center lamination of some type of roeswood. (Roeswood?? Oh deer, oh deer...)
Please read rosewood.

SkSteve Kinnaird38735.5834953704

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

no problem, as you know we are very informal on topics here.

The only conserns I have is the 3/16 vs 1/4 is what I use and the lenght of the bolt may be too long therfore the threads may end too far away from the head if cut down to required length ie the nut nay try to ingage the un-threaded shank, this is of course subject to the depth of your heal. I don't use barrel nuts but I if I did I would want to place ny barrel nut un the middle shallowest depth of the heal to have equal heal material around it. not that the far side matters much since the nut forces are in compression and never in torsion.MichaelP38735.5831828704

Serge, thats looks like an off center barrel bolt. You really want to get the barrel bolts with the threaded hole in the center, that will give more wood area and strength to the tenon. Check out Cumpianos site for info on this joint. I ordered a lifetime supply of the barrel bolts several years ago and forgot the source.
A 10mm drill bit is also handy as the barrels are 10mm.

Serge, You really need the barrel to be the width of your tenon or just slightly less. 3/4" in my case.
I tap 6 mm. holes in 3/8 brass rod and cut to length. A 1" deep tenon and the barrel placed right up against the heel. I also seal the hole ( prior to inserting the barrel ) with thin C.A. I think a big advantage with the barrel system ( Cumpiano method ) is that the barrel can rotate to suit any neck angle.

KiwiCraig.. " Lord of The Strings "

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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I agree that the barrel can rotate but with the insert if you use let say 1/4"(.250) bolts and your hole in your neck block is 5/16 (.313 the maufacturing standard hole dia for a 1/4" bolt) there is enough room for the bolt rotate 2 degrees and if you use belville washers the misalinment of the bolt to the neck block hole center is no issue.

It seams to me the reall advantage of a barrel nut is the extra load bearing surface of the barrel as compaired to the threads of an insert.

Cool guys!Thanks for your explanations, i'm gonna find me those 1/4" threaded inserts with barrell bolts with their holes dead centered. Anywhere i can buy the stuff ?

Your local Ace hardware for either the inserts or barrel nuts. At least at my local Ace.

We don't have Ace but how about Home depot?

every thing but the barrel nuts probably I would find a highly stocked local hardware dealer in your area that deals major time with contractors barrel nut are some what a specialized hardware and most generic hardware stores don't have the demand to carry them. but the threaded inserts are easy to find.

Thanks again Michael!

Serge

I do what Brock does, sans the clamps - never had a heel split on me yet. make sure the hole you drill is the size of the insert if it had no threads, thus only the threads are going into the heel. I wick a little CA around the insert, then go for it. Doesnt matter to me what the wood is, they work fine that way. Oh yeah, mine are all butt joints at the heel, no tenon. Also make sure the bolt will not bottom out in the insert - that can force the insert out for sure if over tighened - had it happen more than once - learned my lesson. To fix - take out the insert - its coming out now anyway right - drill with a forster for some 3/4 dowel, epoxy that in and redrill for the insert. Works well.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

     I use the threaded inserts. took me a while but I found the same supplier the CF Martin uses. They are great little things and I use them for lots if things other than guitar necks.
     They are very stoudt and I haven't had 1 fail yet.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars.
   

I buy my barrel bolts and nuts at Woodcraft, so I bet they have them online too!

Thanks for evrything folks, very helpful as usual!And i appreciate it!

Regards

Serge

Serge, Here's another from Rocklers

barrells

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Thanks for the link Dave, now i know what to buy!

Serge

Serge

I've bought them at Home Depot on several occasions and several different locations. Seems to be a standard item for them. Measure the thickness of your heal block (in mm)before you go. They have several sizes.

Thr'd inserts... I have some of these but have been a bit afraid to use them. Maybe I will try it since you guys are not experiencing trouble.

I'm curious about the flush mount. Any pros or cons versus flush/tenon.
Is there anyway someone could snap a picture of a flush mount neck and
post on the forum - or send to my address oxybenzone@earthlink.net.
That would be awesome.

Thanks,
Simon